Instinctive "snap" shooting

[jackdaw]

I agree with, shoot exactly the way you should shoot. my snap ish style of shooting is exactly what is in me. Trying to alter that is diffivult...

[t2onboard]

Funny how some want.... Hit the range today with the recurve after a month on finger/compound bow , and told myself 50y and under. Smile. I wasn't there ten minutes before someone said, "You need to hold longer." Yep, and kept on walking. Twenty-eight targets, six arrows each, and felt like I hadn't missed a beat. Tried holding, two/three seconds on a few, and re-shot two targets because of hitting left, but it just felt better and more comfortable doing my thing. I'll bring out the longbow tomorrow,Smile.

[Dave Thein]

I also shoot the same way and have ever since I started.  Shooting any other way for me feels unnatural.  I raise my bow and draw (similar to the Fred Bear video that was posted) as I focus on my target.  As soon as I hit full anchor with the first joint of my thumb anchored in the mandibular joint, I release.

[dragonheart]

Bowhunting shots are by and large, practical shots.  An archer must respond to the shot scenario in the moment.  John Schulz calls this "conditioned instinct".  There is no doubt that a reference aiming system, draw and hold style of shooting will excel on a target range at stationary non-living targets.

When we are hunting you never know what you are going to get.  Just as the wingshooter must be ready to respond to a shot in the field, many successful bowhunters approach their shooting style in the same way.  

Have you watched some of the draw and hold (wheel-bow and stickbow) shooters loose an opportunity at a close range simply because their shooting style limits their ability to make a quick shot?

Paul Schafer talked about this in his interview article, that the ability to make a snap shot is very important to him.  Anyone who has hunted with a bow for any amount of time and had an opportunity to take a game animal will recognize the advantage to being able to shoot quickly and without prolong thought.        

A "snap" shooting style can be VERY effective in the hunting woods.  

I grew up with a background of target archery and was taught a very static style of shooting.  Over the years this developed into target panic and focal hand dystonia.  I now have great difficulty with a snap style of shooting right handed.  Too many years of holding at full draw to "reprogram".  

I am shooting left handed now, and I have to say, I am shooting a snap "instinctive" style.  I really like this style!  Fluid and continuous, just like throwing a basketball thru the hoop.  My only interest for many years now has been taking game with a bow.  

One of the things I think that is very important for a snap shooter is to avoid shooting TOO MUCH!  That will lead to problems.  For the bowhunter, shoot one arrow, go pull.  And avoid shooting at a bullseye.  Leaves, stumps, 3-D animal with no aiming "dots".  I truly believe you will be better off developing this "hunting" style of practice and shooting form, if your main interest are grilled backstrap steaks...    

[mgf]

Well, I guess I've probably done more squirrel hunting than anything else. I've killed about a million squirrels with a rifle (maybe a little exaggeration).

Those furry little things are fast, fidgety and unpredictable. I don't shoot instinctively on whatever shot is offered. I deliberately set up the shot I need. If I can't get it, I don't shoot. I aim with the scope and use a rest of some type for about 98% of my shots.

I shoot some squirrels with a bow too but I have to aim carefully to hit the little buggers.

Shot gunning running rabbits in the brush or birds on the wing (I've done lots of that stuff too) is a little different...and the pattern thrown by a modified or improved-cylinder choke is a lot different than an arrow.

I think shooting deer with a bow is more like the squirrel rifle thing.

John Schultz also talked about a 60 yard shot on a running buck that he spooked by missing a 60 yard shot at a standing buck.

The missed shot could have just as easily been a poor hit. I get the impression that they didn't worry as much about that back then as we do today.

Which weapon generally has the greater success ratio?...a deliberately aimed compound with all the bells and whistles or a snap-shot stick bow?

[dragonheart]

Originally posted by mgf:
Well, I guess I've probably done more squirrel hunting than anything else. I've killed about a million squirrels with a rifle (maybe a little exaggeration).

Those furry little things are fast, fidgety and unpredictable. I don't shoot instinctively on whatever shot is offered. I deliberately set up the shot I need. If I can't get it, I don't shoot. I aim with the scope and use a rest of some type for about 98% of my shots.

I shoot some squirrels with a bow too but I have to aim carefully to hit the little buggers.

Shot gunning running rabbits in the brush or birds on the wing (I've done lots of that stuff too) is a little different...and the pattern thrown by a modified or improved-cylinder choke is a lot different than an arrow.

I think shooting deer with a bow is more like the squirrel rifle thing.

John Schultz also talked about a 60 yard shot on a running buck that he spooked by missing a 60 yard shot at a standing buck.

The missed shot could have just as easily been a poor hit. I get the impression that they didn't worry as much about that back then as we do today.

Which weapon generally has the greater success ratio?...a deliberately aimed compound with all the bells and whistles or a snap-shot stick bow?

If you look at wounding-loss rate as a measure of success on taking game they are equal between wheel bows and trad bows.  Look at Roy Marlows book that includes two studies that found this conclusion.  It is in the approach and style you want to shoot a bow and arrow.  And of course how you want to hunt.  I think your analogy of shooting the squirrels with a scoped rifle is the way many modern bowhunters approach the sport.  I grew up bowfishing, and a snap shot many times was par for the course.  That same style can be used in bowhunting and has been used with traditional bows for along time.  The compound bow teaches people to shoot static, well it forces them to.  Why Fred Bear could never shoot one, and would not.  His style of fluid shooting did not work.  It is all in your approach.  The shotgun analogy is the swing shot in the fluid style being similar, not of course the projectile.

[mgf]

Of course, and I don't mean to suggest that there isn't any value in being able to shoot fast. I used to shoot a lot of areal targets with rifles and handguns. I had to shoot fast but I still performed all the same steps as in any other shot.

I know I shoot a bow best when there's some sort of "rhythm"...each shot takes about the same amount of time. I'm doing everything the same every time.

Obviously, you're eventually going to get tired if you hold the bow too long.

I think that there is some "best" speed (probably not the same for everybody). Too fast and you skip steps n the process. Too slow and the process changes or even has added steps.

It seems to me that there should be some window in there where you should be able to shoot or hold and still maintain a reasonable amount of control over the shot.

[dragonheart]

Kinda like this guy, controlled snap shooting...  

Watch this shot, in practice (part 1)
  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=54;t=000003  

Now on a live animal (part 5)
 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=54;t=000001

[Jabar]

Originally posted by Ron LaClair:
I've been shooting a bow since I was a squirt... but I didn't really start to learn about form and style until I started shooting competition 49 years ago. While we never "stop" learning there are some things that become apparent after 50 years of study. One thing I do know for sure is there is no absolute style when it comes to shooting a bow.

When someone says you have to shoot this way or that way because all the top shots shoot that way, I say baloney. Some of the best shooters I've been privileged to know shot with what some would call an "unorthodox" style. Jim Pickering used a "Dead" release and high anchor when he competed in some of the top tournaments of the day in the 1960's. Everyone else in the Country shot with what was call "Power Archery" Jim whipped them all. He was a National Champion and a PAA Champion using a style that everyone said was "wrong". Jim Caspers another Archery Champion shot with a high elbow on his drawing arm. He actually pumped his arm up and down after he was at full draw, he said it helped him build up back tension.

As for the term "Snap shooter", I've been hearing it for 50 years and it was probably used before that. It has "always" been used to refer to someone that shot in one fluid motion, and whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

I was privileged to talk to Fred Bear many times over the years and I remember him calling himself a "snap shooter". He said, "I'm a snap shooter,..I concentrate from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet". He said he couldn't shoot a compound because the let off interfered with the rhythm of his shooting style and broke his concentration.

"Good snap shooters"?...I've seen a lot of them. In the early years of the GLLI (Great Lakes Longbow Invitational) when scores were kept , we had the best shooters in the Country shooting for the honor of top dog. The shooters that won that shoot more often than not were what I call "Snap shooters" Very controlled, very meticulous, very accurate shooters whose release was triggered when they touched their anchor.

Someone that "does not" come to full draw or touch their anchor before they release have what's called "target panic or what use to be called "IT". They are NOT...repeat NOT, snap shooters.

I think the problem is like what Terry said people today are "mis using" the term "snap shooter".  Snap shooting is definitely not an inferior style of shooting a bow, however it must be realized that not everyone can master the snap shooting style. Those that can't may end up with target panic and be called snap shooters but in reality they are  not.

I think Ron sums that issue up very nicely.

[Terry Green]

I'm a snap shooter...Howard Hill was a snap shooter...I've never had 'target panic'.  Target panic can effect those that hold too.  I've seen guys hold at full draw that were terrified to let go, and gasp at the release with fly away string hands and left swinging bow arms.  Snap shooting is not target panic....if so, I could't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.

Those you described that you shot with that can't shoot consistently have a mental issue with target panic.  

I just don't think its fair to true snap shooters to put a negative label on them that is warranted for a mental affliction and not an aiming method....as Ron alluded to.

[Ravenhood]

My target panic started in 1976 when I bought a light weight compound that I could hold forever

[Sam McMichael]

It seems that over the years, I have heard the term snap shooting used in two different ways. In some instances, it was used to reference a shooter who completed his draw and aiming sequence in one smooth action that culminated in release at the instant the anchor point is reached. "Snap" meant quick but carried no indication of target panic or lack of control. I have also heard it used to refer to a snatch and release draw indicative of bad form. So one snap shooter may be smooth and controlled whereas another may have serious form issues.

In today's parlance, which of these usages of snap shooting is considered correct?

[Terry Green]

I had a talk with Ron LaClair about this...and he said the term started getting misused in cases of target panic years ago by folks that didn't understand instinctive 'snap shooting', and I agree as when I started on internet sites years ago there was a beginging of miss use of the term by folks that held to call target panic snap shooting.  Its just not fair to miss label something that was termed years ago as an aiming/shooting method by folks that shot that way.

Watch all 'trick shooters'....all the ones I've seen 'snap shoot', again, including Howard Hill...as well as many other of the 'old timers.  Also, a LOT of great shot hunters I've hunted with are snap shooters.....heck of shots stump shooting as well.

Here's Ron snap shooting.....does he look like he has target panic?....

   

[Jake Scott]

I hope I don't come off sounding like a jerk, that is certainly not my intention.  This topic is discussed to pretty much the same conclusion every couple weeks on this forum.  The horse is dead guys.

I may be corrected here, but my interpretation of this hotly debated issue goes like this....

Good shooters have all the same elements of the shot.  There isn't any way around it.  A solid bow arm, draw, ANCHOR, proper alignment, release. These elements of the shot are NOT negotiable.  I think everyone agrees with that.  Some guys have to hold for a bit to achieve this, other don't.  Simple as that.  The fact is that some guys snapshoot with a lot of success (Terry, Paul, Howard) and others hold (Rod Jenkins, etc).

If you achieve all the elements of a soundly executed shot, and you hit was you are aiming at....do it.  Don't worry about how the other guys hit their spot.  I am guilty of this.  For a good long while I tried to emulate Terry Green to the finest detail of the shot.  When I was having trouble he encouraged me to try some other things.  My shooting improved tremendously.  I may well be oversimplifying this.  I haven't been doing this for 30 years, like many.

Solid bow arm, draw, ANCHOR, alignment, release....

To me it matters very little how fast as all that happens, provided that it DOES HAPPEN, and you hit what you want to hit.

Jake

[Jake Scott]

I re-read that last post and it sounds a little more offensive than I mean it.  My point is that a bunch of fine bow shots should marvel about how many different ways there are to shoot a bow well.  That is all.  Hope it isn't taken wrong.

Jake

[jackdaw]

as a self proclaimed snapshooter it is usually those who take their time at anchor who critique my snap shooting..?? do not believe I've ever said to somebody, ..."you hold too long". To those people who do not snap shirt persay.. they will never understand it..??? holding for one, two or three seconds once you've achieved anchor totally breaks down the shot. Jake,  all aspects of archery are discussed and  rediscussed on this forum. each time from a little bit different perspective.  there are many  posts that I simply bypass....these forums are all about learning and sharing....hopefully everyone will continue to do so....did not mean to stir up a hornets nest but the information on here was great

[reddogge]

It's hard to pigeon hole everyone as to styles of shooting as we are all different.

I am more of a controlled aimer and I can tell when I start shooting too fast because my accuracy and consistency falls off. I have to tell myself to slow down. I can change horses and shoot flying targets and running rabbits snap shooting as necessary.

I play golf the same way, a controlled tempo on each and every swing.

[Skates]

I too agree with Ron.  Howard was known as a snap shooter, and I'd say he was consistent.  I think there's been some sort of 'miss-labeling' also along the way.  Not sure why, but folks sure are re-writing history more than ever now.   Might as well go after archers too.   :(

[Jabar]

What Ron said.  Snap shooting is NOT target panic.  It was a miss use of the term that some used to describe a totally different issue.  Yes, snap shooting is *shooting quick*, that's where it got its name, NOT from folks with an issue of getting to full draw.

There are also like may have been stated above, people that hold that have target panic. That being the case, how can you even begin to label snap shooting as target panic.

Just call a spade a spade and life would be much easier.  Trying to make definitions to suit a bias opinion does no one any good.  I also agree that labeling people that have target panic as snap shooters is a negative towards snap shooters.

[Locogear]

I really like that style of shooting, although I'm no good at it, I'm glad to see it's an effective method, maybe I'll get the hang of it one day