Canting and accuracy

[Ulysseys]

The last month or two I've been working on being more "technical" in my shooting, after switching from a longbow to a recurve.  I can't say that it's going incredibly well so today I decided to just cant my recurve and shoot the same way I shot my longbow.  My accuracy and consistency immediately improved exponentially.  Anyone else ever experience this?  I feel like its directly related to canting the bow.

[TradBrewSC]

I cant shoot well without canting a fair amount. I have tried the more vertical Olympic style and it just does not work for me. I like a larger field of view.

[njloco]

The first question I would ask both of you, do you draw all the way ?

I shoot both LB and recurve, straight up or canted, no real difference, that is why I ask the above question.

[Ulysseys]

I feel like I draw all the way olympic style but short draw when canting, which is what has me confused.  Technically speaking I think my form is bad when I cant, I'm somewhat hunched and short drawing the bow, yet I pack arrows.  Shooting the way I've been practicing I "think" my form is decent, I'm upright, elbow behind the arrow, drawing further, double anchoring, and following through with a dynamic release but my consistency was mush.

[Gdpolk]

I find that my wrist naturally cants the bow. To shoot vertical requires that I think about and control one more thing. Since I feel my equipment is more accurate than me I try to let it do what it does with minimal interface on my end short of simply aiming it. Then again I'm not Byron F. or an Olympic grade shooter.

[TradBrewSC]

I feel like I am coming to full draw. I dont lean into the shot to much, but cant get my elbow aligned well without canting the bow.

[Jake Scott]

"Leaning into the shot" doesn't have an affect on draw length IF your form is correct.  It could be any number of things.  A couple checks to see if you are short drawing.  The best is to have someone film you, and watch the videos.  This is an incredible tool for evaluating your form.  If you can't identify the problem, post the video up in the form forum and let this site works it's magic.  I fought short drawing for a long time.  I very rarely do it anymore, but when I do it's extremely evident in my arrow flight.  Move back past 25 yards and shoot.  This will greatly magnify any short draw problems, if they're there.

Jake

[tracker12]

I tried to make sure I made a full draw and anchor and shoot a more upright position.  All it did was create a horrible release with my hand moving forward vice pulling thru the shot.  I was so intent on back tension that my draw arm and forearm was point right. I was all screwed up.    I just went back to picking a spot and pulling thru the shot.  I release when I hit my anchor my never really old it much.  The style stinks and would not be my choice but my groups are great and on my last pig hunt I made great shots on game.  I only shoot 3D and hunt.  I'm sure my paper scores would be the S%&Ts but who cares.  My DL has shortened about an inch but I'm still at 28 and it is working.  

I shot with a guy last year at a Rendezvous that drew the bow to about the front of his face and stopped.  He would then hold that position  while he picked and concentrated on his spot.  Then he would pull back and shoot in one motion.  Boy was it ugly.  But I can tell you his shots were all in the kill zone.  I think sometimes we try to much to shoot like the book says it should be done instead of settling on what works for you.  If the arrow are stacking your doing something right.  Just make sure you can do it at distance.  It's like the debate between the hold and snap shooting.  One size rarely fits all.

[njloco]

Many people that can't, have a tendency to lean or move their head towards the shot thereby, making them short draw even though they are hitting their anchor. One can and should be able to can't slightly without much change to their form however, if one has to can't passed a certain degree of angle then, one must bend at the waist ! This degree of cant would change slightly for each individual.

Try canting while shooting blank/blind bale shooting. This way you don't have to think about it while trying to aim.

[tracker12]

njloco
This why I hate forums someone is always pointing out your flaws:)  Just kidding really good point there on pushing the head forward.  I never thought of that.  Boy depending on where your head position is it could easily change your DL 2".

[njloco]

I try my best to pay it forward but, because I don't always say in a politically correct manner I must be very careful. When I shoot 3D's I cringe sometimes watching people shoot and, I wonder how they can get into some of the shooting positions they shoot from. Some are able to shoot really well but, most cannot and while I am certainly not an authority on shooting, the one thing people have said to me is, that I have good form.
 
I think, if one has good form, it is much easier to figure out and, correct what one is doing wrong when things start to fall apart.

I have seen first hand, the advantages of shooting blank/bale practice as opposed to just target shooting.

Bill, I wonder if your eye is over the arrow when you cant and off to the side when you are vertical. Which brings another question, in form is there a point when one is over expanding and thus over drawing?  What good is having a straight, statuesque form if you cannot tell where the arrow is pointing? The longest possible draw may not always be the best draw length, everyone is different. For some having a full head turn, so that the eyes are looking squarely at the target, with the arrow under the eye is only possible with the form opened up and the bow canted. As long as there is nothing torqueing the shot off line accuracy is still achieved, even though the draw may not be quite as long. Many of the best game shots of all time shot this way.

[Terry Green]

Good form doesn't know if you are canting or not....neither does your draw length.  IF you are correctly shooting the bow.

   

[moebow]

Pavan,

"Which brings another question, in form is there a point when one is over expanding and thus over drawing?"

I'd suggest that IF a person is "expanding" and the string or hand OR arrow nock is moving back on the face then they are not "expanding" correctly.

I'm with Terry 100% on this one.  The best cant (IMO) is one that does not upset the bow/head/shoulder positions and the relations to each other.  To preclude that "upset" a good cant is set from the waist, and not the head or bow hand.

Arne

True enough, but finding your form and maintaining it never ends. I have seen guys coming from the compound ranks doing some odd stretching and twisting attempting to maintain their former draw lengths. Also, some of us have differing best places to anchor, which can dictate the head position and how the eye lines up over the arrow.  Using myself as an example, I cannot shoot my longbows like I shot my Hoyt target bow.  I have to make adjustments in my form to make each one work, just like I cannot shoot my left hand recurve like my right hand Hill bows. My neck does not turn the same shooting left handed, so I need to open up my shoulders a little bit. With longbows my bow arm likes to be more bent with the straight grips.  I shot a deer this year sitting flat on the ground with my back against a stump, to make that shot with a longbow things had to happen that I am sure violated a number of fundamentalisms of what an Olympic archery coach would advocate.

One additional observation that may have something in common with Bill's question. My wife had one recurve that she preferred to hold vertical, something about the grip. However, when she shot, she would feel the need to move her head into a position to match her anchor that impinged on her neck to a point where she would get pain spikes on the base of her neck on her bowarm side. It did not look like anything much was going on, but that little bit of change was causing a serious situation. Once I got her to shoot with her neck and the bow in a more natural position, as slight as it was, it allowed her to shoot without pain.

[olddogrib]

There can be a very valid reason if you are more accurate when you cant your bow and a lot of folks who do it don't even realize it. We don't all have the same facial geometry and the combination of release & anchor point your prefer doesn't guarantee the arrow is directly under your eye.  If you draw while looking into a mirror and this happens to be the case it's usually pretty obvious.  Now bend slightly at the waist to bring the bow/head to about 1-2 o'clock....voila, problem solved.  I think I actually compensated by "triangulating" for years before I realized that the nock end of the arrow was well right in my peripheral vision and not under my eye.

[Ulysseys]

I think you bring up a good point about my eye being over the arrow canted....i notice that when I hold vertical I'm constantly struggling with my eye getting over the arrow...canted it isn't even a thought

[tracker12]

Olddogrib
If the nock end of the arrow is right of your peripheral vision would that cause to impact left?

[olddogrib]

T-12, I'm a rightie and it does in my case, about 3-4" @ 20 yds. I think it causes you to torque the string outside the centerline of the bow, casuing the tips to move laterally left as well as forward as opposed to straight in a vertical plane. It's more often than not where I'll put that first arrow after a lay-off until I remember to concentrate on form. I wonder how many folks battle this and blame in on too-stiff spine.