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Author Topic: HELP!!! Target Panic...???  (Read 1318 times)

Offline woodchucker

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HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« on: May 03, 2015, 02:09:00 PM »
Please give me some advice on how to help coach my son Tyler, through what I clearly believe is Target Panic...

I read with some "misgivings" JackDraws thread on "snap shooting"... Years ago, I read an artical in TBM, by Deniss Kamstra. I took what I read, out in the back yard, and soon I was shooting better than ever before!!!!! I shot pretty much all year, I couldn't miss!!! Then, I went to an Indoor 3D Shoot... About 100 people, most whom I had never met. I had NEVER shot around "people" before. I mean like 5 or 10, this was like 100!!!!! Next thing I know, I was skipping arrows off the floor, Sticking them in the ceiling... It was UGLY, to say the least!!! Since then, I have learned & trained myself to HOLD, at full draw,while I go through my mental checklist, only THEN willl I release the string!!!!!

Tyler is "short drawing" he releases the arrow before he reaches his anchor point, and sometimes before coming anywhere NEAR, his anchor point!!! I have worked with him, trying to have him hold untill I tell him to release, and the arrow still slips away... He certainly is NOT "over bowed" he shoot's a 50# Bear Grizzly, and can hold the bow at full draw(without an arrow in it) for easily 20-30 seconds. He just seems to draw approximately 2/3s the way, ALMOST touching the corner of his mouth, then the string just slips from his fingers and the arrow is off!!! He is also not getting good back tension... The arrow almays seems to be gone, before he get's a chance to stretch his back out.....

HELP!!!!!!!!!!   :help:
I only shoot WOOD arrows... My kid makes them, fast as I can break them!

There is a fine line between Hunting, & Sitting there looking Stupid...

May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows..... Happy Hunting!!!

Offline Jock Whisky

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2015, 04:02:00 PM »
How old is Tyler?

There will be lots of advice coming but for now when he draws the bow have him look at the arrow coming across the rest/shelf rather than the target. It's anticipating the release that is part of the cause. The brain short circuits the act.
Lots more to come
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Offline woodchucker

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2015, 04:57:00 PM »
He's 16 & he's been shooting since he was 2 1/2... Football Team, Dead lifts 385#, Squats 265#, Benches 187#... Clearly not a "strength" issue,LOL!!!  :rolleyes:  

As I said, without an arrow nocked, he can hold the bow at full draw for half a minute... It HAS to be psycological...(I'm thinking) I've tried working with him, drawing the bow at the target, and not releasing untill I tell him to... When he DOES do this... He's right on!!! However, more times than not, it slips away!!! This is VERY frustrating for BOTH him & I!!!!! I thought about maybe having him close his eyes as he's drawing??? Idk...

We went to a 3D shoot today, and this was bothering HIM, as much as me.....  :confused:    :dunno:
I only shoot WOOD arrows... My kid makes them, fast as I can break them!

There is a fine line between Hunting, & Sitting there looking Stupid...

May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows..... Happy Hunting!!!

Offline LongStick64

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2015, 07:01:00 PM »
Well first off, many of us have been down this road, and there is help. It sounds to me that he is aiming while drawing and he is building anxiety as he is drawing. Basically his mind has given him the go sign before he has come to anchor. This is a common form of Target Panic. Joel Turner has a fantastic approach to solving target panic and I would advise you look him up. My solution was to correct my form and to not force aiming and trust my mind to aim while I set my shot. Sometimes we get so intense in burning a spot that we consciously focus on it, instead of letting the subconscious handle it.
Joel has a drill where he asks you to pick a target in the distance, then he asks you to point to it. Usually you point dead center. Solved my riddle.
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Online Matt Parker

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2015, 07:11:00 PM »
I would recommend getting Joel Turners DVD.  He also has a thread called "target panic reality check" that is very helpful.
Matt Parker

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2015, 10:14:00 PM »
I watched a video on YouTube the other night of a kid short drawing a bow and couldn't help but think that Joel Turner's methods would do wonders for him. I would get the masters of the barebow vol. 4 to start with, it's a great DVD and has helped me out a lot. Joel Turner is on here quite a bit and I'm sure he can offer some suggestions to help him. I know when I struggled with TP I shot with my eyes closed at a hay bale for 2 solid weeks, going through my shot sequence on every shot, trying to engrain a new good habit into my mind. I then opened up my eyes and shot at 5 yards for a while then Gradually worked my way back. If I would struggle at the further distances I would scoot up close and not move back until I felt I had the problem under control. Developing a shot sequence helped me more than anything. Everyone is different and there are several different manifestations of TP but I would bet Joel Turner can point you in the right direction. Check out the target panic reality check thread also, lots of good info on there.

Offline woodchucker

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2015, 10:22:00 PM »
Thanks for your help guys!!! I probly should have done a "search" LOL!!!   :readit:  

Anyway, I'm in the process of reading Joel's thread & then when I'm done, I'll have Tyler read it... That way, we should be on the same page!!!!!

Thank You All Again!!!!!  :notworthy:
I only shoot WOOD arrows... My kid makes them, fast as I can break them!

There is a fine line between Hunting, & Sitting there looking Stupid...

May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows..... Happy Hunting!!!

Offline woodchucker

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2015, 07:01:00 PM »
Fyi, Update!!! I have been reading Joel's thread... I'm up to page 5. This afternoon I went out back with my Bear Grizzly & 1 arrow. I kept saying the mantra... Keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling, all the way back to my anchor, and then while I was holding... Then, when everything just felt "right"..... The string just slipped from my fingers... Right in the kill zone!!! Now, let me make one thing perfectly clear... Most days, I couldn't hit water, if I fell out of a boat!!! I shot for about a half hour & EVERY arrow, was in the kill zone!!!!!
I took Tyler out this evening after dinner, (venison! Gotta help him focus!) He was struggling & the string was still slipping away!!! Then, I had him try something a little different... I had him close his eyes! (Idk why, it just hit me?) I told him to pretend there wasn't an arrow on the string... He drew right back, while saying the mantra... Keep pulling, keep pulling, keep pulling... When he opened his eyes, he raised his bow arm a bit and put the arrow, right in the X ring!!!!! He was amazed!!! (As was I) I had him do it again... And he put another one right in the X ring!!!!! I figured we'd end on a positive shot..... Tomorrow is another day!!!
Thank you all, for your help!!!!!
Woodchucker & Tyler
I only shoot WOOD arrows... My kid makes them, fast as I can break them!

There is a fine line between Hunting, & Sitting there looking Stupid...

May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows..... Happy Hunting!!!

Online McDave

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2015, 07:59:00 PM »
It may help if you understand that there are two different forces at work here, requiring two different solutions. It is possible that some people might suffer from both at the same time, but let's look at them separately.

The first is what you suffered from when you went to the indoor meet: pressure. Your conscious mind went into overdrive because of everything going on.  Your mind was bouncing around between what should have happened on the last shot, what should happen on the next shot, and what might happen in some imaginary place out of time. Everywhere but the present, where it needed to be, so you clutched.  The only way you can shoot in the present is to stop thinking about everything and start becoming aware of what your body is doing on a physical level.  It's okay to think before and after the shot, but not during the shot.  There are all sorts of relaxation and self-awareness techniques you can use to help you with this, some of which you may have found on your own.

The second is target panic, which is caused by the subconscious mind wanting to get the shot over with.  This is probably what Tyler has. All the relaxation and self-awareness techniques in the world won't help with this one.  The only technique that works is to exert conscious control over the shot just prior to the release. Joe Turner's technique works for me as a way to do this.  You draw the bow without any intention of shooting it until you get to full draw and everything feels okay. During this time, you expand your awareness to the max, and if anything doesn't feel right, you let down the shot.  If you get to full draw and everything feels okay, you aim and give yourself permission to shoot.  Then you mentally flip a switch and concentrate your focus on two items only: focusing on pulling the bow until your psychotrigger goes off, while looking at the target to hold your aim.  Your psychotrigger can be a clicker or feather touching your nose or lots of other things as long as they aren't under your direct control. The psychotrigger is an important tool that allows you to take control away from the subconscious, but it won't work unless the final few seconds of the shot are under control of the conscious mind.  If your mind is on autopilot and you're just waiting for he psychotrigger to go off, you'll still have target panic.

Again, you expand your awareness during the time you're drawing the bow until you come to anchor. Then, if everything is okay, you narrow your attention down to just two items: pulling the bow and looking at the target until your psychotrigger goes off.  These 2-3 seconds are when you really have to work on maintaining conscious control of the shot in order to defeat target panic.  Saying a mantra, like "keep pulling," during this phase helps to avoid extraneous thoughts and keep the shot under conscious control.  You don't want anything happening on auto-pilot during these last 2-3 seconds.  You have to have enough control to let the shot down rather than release it prematurely if it starts to collapse.

This is a very brief overview of Joel Turner's method, but it may give you an idea of how it works.
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Offline LongStick64

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 02:06:00 PM »
One tip about the mantra, you need to be actually be pulling for a Keep Pulling Keep Pulling mantra to work. Where some have difficulty with Joels method is they draw to anchor and stop. Then they start the Mantra but in reality they have stopped pulling. The mantra works when you isolate your focus on the MOVEMENT while going through the Mantra.
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Offline cch

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2015, 04:50:00 PM »
Joel has a new website up ironmindhunting.com you can now reach him there.

Offline Jock Whisky

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2015, 10:23:00 PM »
One more thing to consider. "Target Panic" is a dismally poor name for the condition. What it is in reality is loss of shot control. The panic and anxiety comes after the condition sets in and you realize things ain't goin' well. So... don't panic, work on the mental aspect to regain control.

I hear so many people saying they are going to the blank bale or are going to work on their form. This is all good but I don't believe we put enough work into the mental part of shooting. It is a huge part and deserves our attention

Just because you have pulled the string doesn't mean you have to shoot. I suffered from short draw so bad I didn't get to full draw once on a sixty target course.

What I do now is ask two questions.

Is everything as it should be? If the answer is no, I let down (this is initially VERY hard).

If yes, then I ask "do I want to shoot this arrow?" Remember I don't have to. If yes then away she goes, but sometimes the answer is no even though my setup is good just to reinforce shot control. Then I let down.
 
I turn the process over to my subconscious when I answer yes to shoot/don't shoot question.  The arrow is on it's way in the blink of an eye.

The two questions are more of a feeling or concept rather than words but the effect is the same.

I tried the keep pulling mantra but couldn't get the feather to my nose so I had to look for another way to maintain some control up to the release. This seems to work for me. It may help you
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Offline CLICKERMAN

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2015, 10:10:00 AM »
Woodchucker,

Please call me at 253-686-3623 so I can give you the full story and get you the shot control that you seek.  I am training gunfighter instructors today but I can be reached this evening.  If you don't reach me, please leave a message.

Life is too short to not have this information!!!!

Joel Turner
IRONMINDHUNTING.COM
Joel Turner
IRONMIND Archery Systems
Masters of the Barebow 4
2x World Elk Calling Champion / Pro Division

Offline cjohnsjf

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2015, 04:29:00 PM »
Clickerman
Read where you maybe coming out with a second video. If so when and how can I order one

Offline CLICKERMAN

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 10:06:00 AM »
I desperately need to produce something to get this new info out there.  I might do a new DVD, or possibly a webinar on my new website.  Not sure yet, still exploring what would be the best way to go.
Joel Turner
IRONMIND Archery Systems
Masters of the Barebow 4
2x World Elk Calling Champion / Pro Division

Offline tracker12

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 08:39:00 AM »
A webnar would be great.  After all the positive comments I think I need to give you a call.  I get into a stretch where I get to the corner of my mouth and just can't seem to get to full expansion.   Really plays havoc with my distant control.  I either fall short or go high when I try to force myself to pull thru the shot.
T ZZZZ

Offline mooshkat

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2015, 06:54:00 AM »
I am struggling with the same issues here, and i have no consistency at all, i would love to hear what you have to say joel, when is a good time to call you, if you wouldnt mind.
                                      Dave
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Offline woodchucker

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Re: HELP!!! Target Panic...???
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2015, 10:34:00 PM »
Update!!! I called Joel a few weeks ago and Tyler & I talked to him on speaker phone. This helped emencly, as it put Tyler and I on the same page when I was coaching him through his shot sequence!!!!! He still has some problems, but is doing much better!!! We went to a 3D shoot last weekend and he did VERY WELL!!! His best shot was about 25yds, through a 2' diameter Hollow Log, into the Xring of a Boar target... While SITTING on a Rocking Horse!!!!!   :readit:  

Thanks Again, Joel!!!!!!!!!!    :notworthy:      :notworthy:
I only shoot WOOD arrows... My kid makes them, fast as I can break them!

There is a fine line between Hunting, & Sitting there looking Stupid...

May The Great Spirit Guide Your Arrows..... Happy Hunting!!!

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