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Author Topic: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive  (Read 4661 times)

Offline ChuckC

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2015, 04:18:00 PM »
Two bird, yes. . but the buzz word is
subconsciously".  There is no other way.  Your brain cannot just know what to do, it must have experienced that before, likely many times, getting into what Terry said.

I do not gap.  Not consciously anyway.  But I most probably do unconsciously.  Maybe not as a gap per se, but certainly as a whole picture. .  when it looks like this, I do that,and the arrow goes there..
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Offline gonefishing600

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2015, 03:50:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
'How do you go about learning instinctive shooting'.....

by getting a good gap shooter to teach you       :biglaugh:        :biglaugh:        :biglaugh:  
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Online Walt Francis

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2015, 06:14:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terry Green:
'How do you go about learning instinctive shooting'.....

by getting a good gap shooter to teach you       :biglaugh:        :biglaugh:        :biglaugh:  
Ya just gotta love that one.....regardless of your perspective.

For me,  I repeat,  FOR ME, I lean towards RC's perspective.

I am not much on 3D shooting and what not.   In reality, I dont think about it much,  I just make the critter dead.  Don't pay much attention to anything else.....Just make it dead.

One  note: In my simple mind, targets are not critters, but critters are targets (there is a difference).  I cannot force my mind to place the same value to each, and therefore do not put the same amount of effort on a target as is extended on an animal......probably to my detriment.  However, though not quite as accomplished as RC, I can live with my results.
The broadhead used, regardless of how sharp, is nowhere as important as being able to place it in the correct spot.

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Offline hart2hart

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2015, 10:14:00 PM »
No flames gents,but no one has mentioned (I think.) targets that demand more attention and less on arrow,forcing you to shoot more instinctive.Balloons strung on a clothesline setup
in a mild breeze.Tire swinging or rolling downhill,etc.
Only after you've gotten a solid base and constant rhythym down.I am NOT talking about making you a  snapshooter!!!

Offline Producer

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2015, 01:00:00 PM »
What is gap shooting? What is instinctive shooting? I have read hundreds of opinions and I still do not have a clear definiction. I practice at ranges from 20 yards down because that is all the room I have in my yard. As far as I know I shoot instinctive. I have a system of form down and I repete it each and every shot. When I am at anchor and I an standing right and have raised my bow right all feels good. I then look at exactly where I want to hit and at twenty yards or less it will always be close. It is it off say to the left of target it did not feel right before I shot I am know why I missed right. Something was wrong in the process. If I go to a range where I can extend my target I somehow feel that I have to raise my bow arm. I have no reference point of how high it is by feel. That being said, on one particular range I shoot at I found that at thirty yards if I aim at the top of the target it will hit the bulls eye. Is that gap shooting? I have seen archers that are sight pin shooters who by trial set their muliple pins so if their target is 20, 30, 35, or 40 yards or more they aim using the appropiate pin. To me that is an aiming system and no longer instinctive. And if I am shooting at the range I spoke of earlier and at 30 yards I aim at the top of the target I am useing an aiming system and no longer shooting instinctive. I believe there is such a thing as purely instinctive in archery and I believe that I practice it. Maybe I am wrong but if so, how?
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Online Terry Green

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2015, 03:09:00 PM »
Producer...one is conscious aiming and the other is subconscious aiming.  Simple really.
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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2015, 02:42:00 PM »
I can secondary aim like Hill explained when describing an 'imaginary' aiming point, I can do it very quickly as well, within what appears to be  a one second instinctive shot tempo. However, if it is a familiar shot and distance, there is no thought to it.  'Grooved in' as Bob Wesley would call it.  Hill's secondary aiming process is a mechanical explanation of what natural hand/eye coordination will do for one anyway, with just a bit of acknowledgement of the position of the arrow. When one gets familiar with it, instinctive coordination takes over.  I have found, when teaching someone how to shoot in my backyard that has never shot a bow before, that once they get basic form down with either a recurve or a longbow, (some pick it up quick and others it takes days) that I can put a bright red ball approximately where their secondary aim would be and they have more arrows hitting the 4 foot square target more often than my garage.  Then, after a few dozen shots, when I take the ball away, the groups tighten up on the target and my garage is safe from their wayward arrows.  I imagine that shooting lots of arrows would get them to that same point as well, but doing the bright red ball thing does save some putty and paint time for me.

Offline BWallace10327

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2015, 06:24:00 PM »
Learning to shoot instinctively is easy, or atleast explaining the process itself is. Good, repeatable form+lots of practice (> metric ton of arrows).  Point, draw to anchor (reference) and release, it can be done, but it takes time, but if you like shooting your bow it will be ok.
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Offline reddogge

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2015, 08:18:00 AM »
I'm watching two members of our club who in the last year bought recurves or longbows and have been shooting instinctive after switching from their compounds. Their one biggest problem is they are shooting way too fast. They aren't anchoring or aiming, just pulling back and firing away spraying their arrows all over. As we know from the good experienced instinctive shots on here you can still shoot immediately after anchoring but for learning purposes you should anchor, aim, release in a nice even tempo.
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Offline BWallace10327

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2015, 04:11:00 PM »
I don't believe someone should practice shooting one day- drawing, anchoring, holding, aiming, if they would like to snap shoot instinctively.  Shooting in a more static manor for learning purposes would lead to learning to shoot statically better.
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Offline reddogge

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2015, 11:03:00 PM »
I didn't say shoot in a static manner. I said to shoot with a slower tempo.
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Offline fastmari

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2015, 09:41:00 AM »
There can be no true "generalities" or "universal laws" about people's abilities, since everyone's eyes, brains, reflexes, emotional drawbacks to physical actions, spinal posture, arm length, neck length, self-confidence, visual acuity in both or either eye, and such.   Lifelong astigmatism and shortsightedness differing in both eyes plus arthritic anomolies cause my eye Rx to work one day, and can't see out them the next.  Started bowhunting with compound/fingers, then compound/release, but Carpal tunnel/tendinitis caused me to lose use of my Right arm at one point, the bowyer/archery range advisor tested me and told me, 'your eyes/brain are left-eye dominant.  Gotta switch."  Husband and I both got traditional that day, since I had to set aside 10 yrs of equipment anyway.  My recurve LH is still no miracle since my other eye is also my worse Rx, 3 X worse than the Right eye's Rx.   But, I stopped shooting 2 feet to one side!   On the range/club lanes, my shooting suckd, but I enjoyed mostly creating 3D foam Big Game targets for our little club and RI's new United state bowhunter group that we helped found. RI has bow-only island hunts by permit/FCFServed, plus earned Competency/unmarked yardage test shoot.  I passed despite being the only female among 175 male observers & state officials, other than one female Enforcement officer (thanks, Ms. Joy!).  3 of 5 was passing and I blew the first 2 shots.  A club guy took me aside, encouraged me to see "the deer as my target", plus the energy from getting mad, I aced the last 3 shots.  I looked past what my eyes were seeing, to view what I wanted my brain to do, and I then saw what I wanted to happen.  That ain't a gap, I think, that is instinctive.  For some; they define instinctive as some snap-shot, or point/release thing, but truly instinctive acts DO involve parts of our brain/organs that we are not consciously aware of or in complete control of.  We can "ask" ourselves to engage this instinctive potential, and practice "engaging" this potential, until it IS what we do when we shoot, unless we mess it up with adding things onto it, that may interfere with whatever functions it uses our body to perform.  The brain has to assess our stance, our form, our hold, bow angle/tilt, our view of the target and it asks itself is the shot ready, will it hit the target rightly...many have agreed with the experience of "feeling" when the brain answers those questions on that instantaneous checklist flashing thru the brain/body and feel the answer as we release the arrow and it hits the target just as we "saw" it would. Either we are seers, seeing the future of that arrow hitting as we want it to, as we "see" it doing before it happens, or we have instinctive shooting from deep in our brain's abilities, like breathing in our sleep, or babies newborn swimming underwater without drawing water into their inexperienced lungs, or like the overwhelming gut-stabbing attractions we have to people who just turn out to be the perfect mate for us.  Just because you use a match-making service on top of that attraction to an internet photo, doesn't mean the attraction is voided; and you might use a CPap device to aid breathing, but you are still trusting your instinctive lung activity to deliver breath thru the device.  I can walk in the dark and put my hand out onto an object I knew I left somewhere, as if I was looking right at it, thanks to instinctive mental mapping by the brain of our environment.  That is what I think is a large part of our instinctive shooting, aided by mental mapping of the environmt.which will include target and whatever we have to do with what we have to reach out and put our arrow onto the vitals.  We just let the arrow " do the walking".    Somewhere, I think I saw an expert at it suggest some mental exercises to strengthen this ability for the archer to use.  Maybe worth a google...good luck with it. Everything gets tougher with age, and I know that eyesight and reflexes, senses, strength and flexibility lose acuity & power, so we have to afford ourselves of naturopathy's herbal remedies for muscles, brain, blood viscosity, nerves, memory, control & vitality, inflammation.  Geriatric decline begins by 35 in most of those areas, even earlier in others. The average American is clinically deficient in vital vitamins such as D3, B, E, magnesium & calcium, thyroid factors, has sluggish liver/pancreas and bowel-digestive functions, where our immunities come from by the biotic colonies balance.  Eating venison is good, but we need more, and few doctors will test any of these for reasonable, updated levels.  Many have all symptoms of Thyroid disease or deficits, but doctors don't understand when tests show borderline or just a little low, that tests don't show how much Thyroid hormone is being used by the body, it only shows what is available...like telling the starving guy that there's plenty of food in California....but he's starving in CT!   Bowhunters have an appreciation for venison's great nutritional purity, but we often lack understanding of our own body's same muscle quality & purity; eating junk or traditional "homecooked" foods that boil, fry or soak out all the vitamin & nutrition.  The degradation to eyes starts after age 25, heats up at 35, while our bones set by age 21 and that can settle onto nerves and tendons that attach muscles to bones.  Your shooting will improve after you do a dietary overhaul on your eating habits, your vitamin supplementation and get your General Physician to do a complete fasting blood panel on you.  Follow instructions on supplements for when/how to take them, look for contraindictions, such as not taking Calcium/magnesium or digestive enzymes at the same time as dosing a Rx med.  Did you know heart attack deaths will show on autopsy a deficit or total lack of CoQ10?  That is Ubiquinol in our body; used for muscles among other things, and our foods lack enough of it. Supplement with a high quality Ubiquinol, body ready form, not a Coq10 Ubiquinone that needs to be converted by the body.  I am not expert, just study to stay alive, to reverse chronic, acute conditions that kept me from bowhunting for years, weak, crippled, racked with pain out of my mind and could not stand and walk, never mind pull back a bow!  Vision was so doubled, foggy, I could not read or focus.  Was totally lacking Vits D, B, Thyroid low, probiotics messed up from years of antibiotics and surgeries, unaided recuperations due to bad insurance, no money, bad doctors who know nothing about nutrition & health, only drugs, surgeries, copays.   It took 4 yrs before I could go buy my hunting license, or stand unaided to walk and carry my bow. I don't yet string/unstring it myself, but soon, I hope.  Doctors left me for agonizingly crippled death with big bills...naturopathy, vitamins & natural compounds like Alpha Lipoic Acid, enzymes, probiotics, amino acids, choline & inositol, herbal supplements like Astragalus, Malic acid, Red Raspberry leaf, Eucommia bark for liver/kidney,  Turkeytail, Reishi, Lions Mane, ****ake,& ABM mushrooms, Ashwaganda rejuvenator.  Bromelain, from pineapple; a natural diuretic that helps digest food while strengthening dig. tract tissues while letting patients STOP taking deadly HCTZ, a common heart or Hi blood pressure patient drug that may have killed more people than normal heart attacks by themselves!  Alpha Lipo can also be diuretic while easing muscle spasms (as magnesium/calcium does too)which is why I take it for decades old thigh dysfunction that hardens up at the tendon on the knee, feels like a spike is being pounded into my leg.  Anyone taking L-Carnitine for muscle building regimen, may know that it helps burn off body fat, and fat mixed into/around muscle tissue. The L-Arginine amino acid is also vital for heart function/strength, and it opens up blood vessels, which is how many drugs work that lower BP, softening or opening up vessels.  That may give men erections, so they may not want to take it during AM, but at night, when it will ease leg spasms/restless leg by letting pressure out of veins, which is why I take it.  You can take a derivative of milk, Ameal peptide, that softens blood vessels, lowering BP, and has no penile erection side effects.  Doctors won't tell you about these lifesavers because no drug company makes billion$ off them.  Getting healthy will add years, perhaps decades to your bowhunting time on earth.  Don't want anyone to suffer as I did with several entire YEARS not hunting, my bow hanging on a wall getting dusty.  So sickening!  If you are having trouble hitting the target or vitals, or the broadside of a barn....have a bowyer test for your dominant eye, examine your shooting form.  You have to pay some for these examinations/advisements, but it is worth it when they are experienced and skilled.  It may mean re-equipping, retraining as I had to, but within that year, my other years of archery/bowhunting added to some months of shopping LH traditional stuff, shooting lanes,3D, stumps and paper before I went out to bowhunt lefthanded.  The results were immediate in both brain-relief (no more wierd distress when aiming which was my eyes telling brain they were not seeing the same thing) and in venison.  From Day1, we both were in love with our traditional bows; his stick, my recurve from Leon stewart in PA.  We did not force our lifestyle on our only child; and she wouldn't let us anyway.  But now on her own, she has turned to the bow, joining in with some Air Force peers.   We are buying her first recurve, a takedown with hardside case, as her job will ship her anywhere anytime and it has to be portable.  I joined Trad Gang hoping to locate a cool side quiver for her to practice at an indoor range with, or if they go stumpshooting.  I would prefer handmade, and would have done this myself but as I said, I lost years to disabling pain, crippling and mental fog, bedridden, and stil have trouble getting things done.  Someone out there must have a lefthand shooter's leather/handmade quiver that will hold more than 6 arrows for her, that I can buy/trade for this weekend, when her bow kit gets to her in MD.  I appreciate anyone taking time to read my contribution to the experiences with instinctive shooting's vast subject matter, and who may have that quiver.

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2015, 11:54:00 PM »
I don't have a lot to add here because I used the metric ton of arrows method. It worked ok. Then I went to a Rod Jenkins clinic and learned about shot routine and proper back tension. Within a year of that, I was shooting better than I ever thought I could prior!

Bisch

Offline VA Elite

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2015, 12:07:00 PM »
from my limited experience, lots of arrows and mistakes and knowing how to fix those mistakes have helped, but i have a long ways to go. Im sure a coach would help, but you still have do everything right to get the results you want. that does take a lot of practice.
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Offline passion for knowledge

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2015, 07:35:00 PM »
Last time I was out shooting with the last bow I made - shooting about 30 yards at a 1ft square target - my first dozen arrows were all around the target but I could grab all of them without taking a step.
Second dozen - same
Third dozen - same
Forth 5 in the target - 2 touching
Fifth 7 in target.
Sixth 7 in target.

I was reasonably happy with that at 30 yards.

Starting to feel the fingers and shoulders at that point.

I try to be aware of my stance and just look at the target.

Not claiming to be any kind of expert, I just find that doing it a lot makes me better at it.

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Offline moebow

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2015, 07:56:00 PM »
My gosh Fastmari!! Have you ever thought of using paragraphs for  reading?  You MAY have some points here but your efforts are unreadable.

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Offline moebow

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2015, 07:57:00 PM »
11 H Hill bows
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4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

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Offline Wolftrail

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2015, 08:46:00 AM »
"Form that establishes good alignment"    From all the material I have read online that one line pretty well says it all in a nutshell.     :thumbsup:

Offline Wolftrail

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2015, 08:58:00 AM »
At fastmari, I agree with you on lots of points good eating habits and proper nutrition go a long way but from my experience Hereditary family background is probably the most important factors.  My Dad is still kicking at over 90 barley but then again he lived a very, very tough life.  I'am almost 60 gone thru Cancer for the last 5 years, have chronic back pain, arthritis and digestive issues up the ying yang.  Exercise and eat well. Processed foods and eating out of a can dont cut it.  Very unhealthy.      :(

Offline jackdaw

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Re: How'd you guys go about learning instinctive
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2015, 12:28:00 PM »
here is something to remember.....practice does not make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. Like so many people said on here earlier.....run your shot...sequence by sequence...at a manageable distance...say 7 or 8 yards..! from draw, anchor point and subsuquent  release...! making sure you have a dead hand or dynamic release without "side plucking". And then of course hitting where you are looking shot after shot. Time and repetition will take care of the rest. The better you can concentrate, the better you will do on any given day. It holds true with me til" this day. Remember, you cannot shoot well at 12,15 or 20 yards until you master the 5-7 yard distance. Baby steps will help you improve rapidly. There is no "one system" that will work for all as their perfect system. You must practice and refine it to work for you. Master your form first...and sorry....the more you practice, the better you will be. No magic pill here......have FUN...!!!!
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