Hitting a wall in Accuracy...help

[Michael Arnette]

Hello again,

I've been practicing every day for the last three months using my TallTines 60# 58" recurve.
I've shot recurves and longbows for 10 years this season and I'm kind of at a standstill, really I've been there for several years now. Each year it seems like I can get my accuracy to a certain level and then it just seems like I just keep hitting a wall. Basically I can hit the vitals of a Whitetail every time inside 20 yards but outside that it gets ugly real quick. I'd say my groups at 20 yards are always within the 6" mark.

 I've been thinking this year and last about the number of shots at mature whitetail that I've had between 20 and 30 yards. Realistically the 20-30 mark have represent about 60 to 70% of my opportunities at mature whitetail. To be sure I've taken plenty of hunting shots at this range and so far have let's just say, gotten lucky. I'm really trying to get deadly out to 30 and just can't seem to do it.

I've been using a Rick Welch style anchor with three fingers under. I have tried 1, 2, and 3 anchor points off and on and can't decide which to settle on. Third finger corner of the mouth, nose to the flinch, and knuckle against the cheek.

My question is twofold, should I give up? Should I seek in person training?

[Scott E]

In person training is a good idea. A Rod Jenkins seminar or the Rick Welch school would also be helpful.

You shouldn't give up and you definitely can get past that wall but you have to be committed to it.

Why do we miss? I consistencies. So as we get further from our target little inconsistencies start to really add up.

How do we get consistent? You have to start with your form and work a consistent form into your subconscious. Once your consistent form is apart if you and you don't have to think about it, your brain will have to relearn to aim and hen you will be deadly accurate at all distances.

Moving around anchors isn't helping your situation. Choose one that you feel gives you good control of your shot and you can hit every time.  

I wouldn't start on your journey until the end of hunting season. Often times when you start working on things your accuracy gets worse because the changes require conscious thought.

Good luck,

Scott

[Michael Arnette]

Oops

[Michael Arnette]

Yes I need to just settle on one before much longer.

[moebow]

Michael,

Scott pretty much said it all.  In person training is a good thing if available for you.  BUT!!

You HAVE to be willing to give up some of the things you do or think (most likely) to improve.  For example, you are experimenting with anchor touch points.  It doesn't work that way.  Your anchor is a RESULT of your draw, NOT an artificial decision to put your hand here or there.

Also, be aware that there are "break points" in shooting.  There seems to be one between 15 and 20 yards and another between 20 and 30.  I am firmly convinced, though, that all those "break points" can ONLY be overcome with more and more attention to form and NOT JUST shooting arrows hoping to become better.

Arne

[McDave]

Originally posted by moebow:
Michael,

Also, be aware that there are "break points" in shooting.  There seems to be one between 15 and 20 yards and another between 20 and 30.  I am firmly convinced, though, that all those "break points" can ONLY be overcome with more and more attention to form and NOT JUST shooting arrows hoping to become better.

Arne

I agree with Arne's point.  However, to take it one step further, there is no physical reason why there should be any break points.  However good or bad you shoot, and discarding the occasional flyer, all of your shots should fit within a cone that starts at the tip of your arrow and ends however far away is the farthest shot you want to shoot.  In other words, there should be a natural dispersion of misses which should widen out as you get farther from the target, less dispersion for a good shooter, more for a poor shooter.

If there are break points, it is solely because your mental attitude changes as you get beyond your comfort zone and you begin having doubts about making the shot.  Doubts take away some of your mental awareness and you start making mistakes that you wouldn't make if you were in your comfort zone.  For example, you might start peeking without being aware you're doing it, or you might tense your string hand or forearm, or you might lose your concentration at the critical moment just before releasing the arrow.

There are two ways to solve this problem:  first, as Arne mentions, you can just drill form until you get good enough at it that you don't make mistakes anymore.  Second, you can study and practice mindfulness techniques until you develop the same ability to be aware and to concentrate at any distance or any level of outside pressure that you already have within your comfort zone without any outside pressure.  Clearly, these two ways are complementary, and I recommend using both.

[2bird]

If your not aiming, start

[Michael Arnette]

Well that's a good place to start. Thanks for the input and to clarify I haven't been just swapping around anchor points all the time but have tried several over the years that's all. I think I'm going to try to focus more on bow arm and back tension form during my practice sessions.

[HighNTree]

Michael,
I attended Rick Welch's school back in October 2006.  With just two days of training, my shooting immediately reached a new level. Shots into pie plates out to 45 yards are now routine for me thanks to Rick's training.  I don't say this to brag, but to give you an idea of what is possible.

[jonsimoneau]

Micheal you may not be giving yourself enough credit. If you can kill deer at 20 yards you are probably doing better than many. I feel your frustration. I get big bucks in annually that are 25 or 30 yards out and I don't shoot.  I've tried to increase my effective range but in the end I feel that hunting whitetails with a recurve is simply a 20 yards and under type of game. I believe I could increase my range if I were to use some sort of a site on the bow but the fact of the matter is that once a deer gets passed the 20 yard mark it becomes very difficult to pick a spot and you end up shooting at the whole deer. So what I have been doing is manipulating stand sites in an effort to subtly shift deer for a closer shot in the same fashion that Gene and Barry Wensel do. It's been fun!

[2bird]

Originally posted by jonsimoneau:
Micheal you may not be giving yourself enough credit. If you can kill deer at 20 yards you are probably doing better than many. I feel your frustration. I get big bucks in annually that are 25 or 30 yards out and I don't shoot.  I've tried to increase my effective range but in the end I feel that hunting whitetails with a recurve is simply a 20 yards and under type of game. I believe I could increase my range if I were to use some sort of a site on the bow but the fact of the matter is that once a deer gets passed the 20 yard mark it becomes very difficult to pick a spot and you end up shooting at the whole deer. So what I have been doing is manipulating stand sites in an effort to subtly shift deer for a closer shot in the same fashion that Gene and Barry Wensel do. It's been fun!

Why limit yourself like that? Shooting deer past 20 yards is not a hard thing to do, what’s your point on distance?

[Caleb Monroe]

Michael your doing fine not like your bouncing arrows off of tree's with a Hill bow. It was good shooting with you last saturday.

As far as shooting at deer past 20 yds. I agree with jonsimoneau. Too much can happen at those ranges as far as the deer reacting to the shot. It's not worth wounding a deer. I am a believer in practicing long range makes the close shot easier.

[overbo]

I may add, small game hunting will give you leaps and bounds in developing shooting skill in most any hunting situation.

[Michael Arnette]

Caleb it was such a pleasure to shoot with you as well! Thanks for input guys!

[Mo0se]

It's most likely a reward based thought process instead of a routine first process. If you can consistently hit your mark at 20 then you should be able to replicate that at 30. Most of the time it's based in fear of missing or not shooting to your expectations. Try focusing only on the process for a while, ignoring the results. The more your mind learns that it's ok to fail at these distances the more comfortable you will begin to be. You can't automatically expect the results to be the same from 20 to 30 if you haven't spent much time at 35.

[reddogge]

In reality a deer is a small target at 30 yards. A lot can happen by the time the arrow gets there. Your money shots are going to be from 10 to 20 yards. No reason why not to practice the shot though but I've passed up shots at 30 yards myself and at one very nice buck. It can be done but it's a low percentage shot in my book even though I can nail a foam deer at 30.

[Cody Greenwood]

When I hit a wall it tells me I need to find my next source of shot to shot variation. Dropping poundage usually helps me find areas of improvement and drill them in to the shot.

[Traditional-Archer]

Awe, distance that old bugger. We tend to get hung up on that thing called distance too much I believe.
When you are stumping do think to yourself how far a shot is, or do you just shoot at the stump or leaf or whatever you are shooting.
I agree that the affective range of the equipment we have chosen is 20 yards for some even 15 for others and occasionally even further out for some guys that have years of experience in this way of life hunting. Every person has their affective range we all know that, but in reality we chose to limit ourselves the day we picked up a long bow or recurve.
Can we hang with compound and crossbow shooters, absolutely but not constantly? That’s what we sometimes compare our shooting range to, but we shouldn’t.  Most of my shots at whitetails in the past ten years have been over 20 yards, my first buck I shot back in 2006 with my recurve was at 28 paces from my tree but, when I drew my bow I was not thinking about how far he was. I was concentrating on the hair I wanted to penetrate with the broad head.
I have been lucky at times and have never been happy one hundred percent with my shooting in the field, but that is what drives me to be better. I believe that is, what you are doing here, driving yourself to be better.

 If you want to shoot better got to a school and learn some things you may not know about the process of shooting your bow, but I don’t think you are going to do that, because you never responded to that when it was mentioned to you earlier. You must be happy with your ability and form. That’s way cool, then this is what I would suggest. Make sure 100% that the marriage between your bow and arrow is the perfect match, this I would say is the #1 reason most people start having problems shooting past say a distance outside whatever distance they feel comfortable shooting at and you said
   

Basically I can hit the vitals of a Whitetail every time inside 20 yards but outside that it gets ugly real quick”

I shoot at 60 yards in practice mostly for fun, and I have a hill in my back yard my two kids and I have fun shooting at a soccer balls that my daughter has outgrown I have filled them with great stuff foam insulation, after kicking the ball up the hill we shoot them on there bay back down. Try some of these ideas and increase your concentration level.  If you shoot at long distance you see more of your mistakes that is true, and you will not be as accurate that much we all know. But when you move in you will see a better shot. And you will have a blast doing it. At our club we have a 40 yard target outside that where I start I might take a shot at a stump or a leaf on the way over to the club. You want to shoot at the further distance when you are fresh and tour arm is not blown from shooting 30 rounds before hand start out fresh.
One thing we all have to learn in shooting traditional bow is, one it’s not a compound bow, two you will never shoot as good as you did with your compound bow consistently. I know you can shoot out to 30 yards without any problem and whitetails vitals are still very visible at that distance, you can do this Michael it just will take you some research and practice and it will happen. You may not keep that group that you do at say 20 yards but you can shoot your bow with confidence out to 30 yards without “getting ugly real quick”. I have been where you are now, and a lot of my friends that choose to do this the hard way have as well. Good luck and happy hunting.

[calgarychef]

It's malware your sorting or your mental game that ps the factor.  Tuning might bring your groups around.  I know when I get to a point where I think my shooting has dropped off and I can't hit squat it's usually somethings that's gone out of tune.

[Sam McMichael]

I agree with those who tell you that if you are consistently able to make good hits on deer at 20 yards, you are doing well.

Also, like moebow said, form improvement may be a major factor in creasing your effective range. But in the final analysis, if you never become able to achieve your desired accuracy at longer distances, you are still a proficient archer. So don't let it get you down.

Most of the stories on this site talk about shots from 10 to 20 yards. Few are at very long range. Keep working on it though.