Committing to the shot

[Jock Whisky]

ne of the things I've learned over the last year or so mostly from Joel Turner is that just because I've pulled the string doesn't mean I have to shoot. I can let down and start again. So what I've been doing is getting to full draw, setting and keeping back tension. I'm pretty well on target but may need some fine tuning. Learning that I didn't have to shoot has been huge in getting here. This is where I decide whether or not to shoot.

So if I'm happy with the shot I commit at this point and there's no going back. I expand and release. Usually things work out well.

Is this a reasonable way of approaching and committing to a shot?
Does committing mean passing the point of no return?

[moebow]

Yes, I think so.  I feel a shooter should be able to stop the shot at ANY point before actual release.  I fully recognize that some folks with target panic may not be able to do that but that is also the biggest reason they need to overcome the malady.  It not only is unsafe but it leads to poor shooting too.  The decision to release must be made AFTER reaching full draw and setting the aim (whatever that may be) NOT when you start to draw or anytime earlier in the cycle.

FULL control of the shot!!!!

Easier said than done but absolutely necessary IMO!

Arne

[Green]

Well made points, Arne.

[Terry Green]

What Arne said except I aim before I ever raise the bow.... just a different aiming style

[TSP]

Having seen some of Joel Turner's recent videos it seems he has a good grasp of the 'mental' side of shooting, at least with regard to controlling the shot.  But, his videos suggest that routinely holding the bow at anchor for long periods of time (perhaps 7 to 11 seconds...just a rough estimate based on slow counting some of his shots between his anchor and release) is a key factor in shooting well.  The concern here is that even if he doesn't intend it as a key factor (I.e., even if it's simply his own personal style, not necessarily part of his instruction) the casual observer might regard holding that long as part of the recommended instruction.  

I think most experienced archers would not advocate routinely holding at anchor for as long as JT seems to do, as it might actually invite what we want to avoid...overthinking the shot and the potential for target panic.  It also does not seem to be a practical approach for bows of heavier weights, such as those that make sense for hunting.  

There may still be some chinks to work out in his presentations, or at least some further explanations of why he does what he does and what his key do's and don'ts are.  But he's an interesting archer for sure.

[cch]

Joel shoots with a trigger. Usually a grip sear and won't shoot until it goes off. He usually hunts with poundages around 48-50 #.  He is always refining his system. If you can't hold for that long comfortably you are probably overboard. I do training shots where I hold for 30 seconds before I finish my aim and execute my movement to get my clicker to go off. This simulates an elk walking in. I can also get through the click in a second or two. You just have to slow down enough so you have time to evaluate your shot before you shoot.

[TSP]

I certainly respect JT's long hold approach as one he has found it to work well for him.  But I'm not a believer in holding for long periods of time as part of a normal shot cycle with a bow, for reasons mentioned and more.  While the ability to draw and  hold your bow for 10 seconds (or so) has long been a rough test for when the shooter is over-bowed, I've never seen anyone recommend that approach for general shot-to-shot practice and shooting.  After years of shooting I can say that holding even lighter weights for extended periods, with arms and tendons extended and under constant tension/sudden relaxation, over and over again, can create health problems for your shoulder tendons, joints and neck area.  The shoulder area simply isn't designed for it (as my physical therapist likes to remind me).  That might be why some of the best barebow and compound shooters in the world today have adopted relatively short shot cycles.  

The body tells you what it's limits are and when it talks it's best to listen.  It's like listening to your wife.  Ignore the message and get ready for extreme and potentially prolonged discomfort.  

I'd be interested in whether JT feels such a long pause at anchor is conducive to better accuracy...and whether his research on accuracy/target panic has examined potential health factors associated with longer holds.  If this information is contained in one his videos, can you provide the video name?  Thanks.

[cch]

Joel never talks about hold time. Just slow enough to evaluate your shot. He recommends using a psycho trigger with his system. If you can get through your trigger faster that is great. You just need to be able to evaluate your shot and determine if you want to shoot that arrow or not. He has a way to show you the speed at which you can perform the movement to get through your trigger.

[tracker12]

Bottom line is you hold and do not release until you have a good clear sight picture and are on target.  Sometimes it takes longer to get on target. I don't hold for just the sake of holding.

[reddogge]

Originally posted by TSP:
I certainly respect JT's long hold approach as one he has found it to work well for him.  But I'm not a believer in holding for long periods of time as part of a normal shot cycle with a bow, for reasons mentioned and more.  While the ability to draw and  hold your bow for 10 seconds (or so) has long been a rough test for when the shooter is over-bowed, I've never seen anyone recommend that approach for general shot-to-shot practice and shooting.  After years of shooting I can say that holding even lighter weights for extended periods, with arms and tendons extended and under constant tension/sudden relaxation, over and over again, can create health problems for your shoulder tendons, joints and neck area.  The shoulder area simply isn't designed for it (as my physical therapist likes to remind me).  That might be why some of the best barebow and compound shooters in the world today have adopted relatively short shot cycles.  

The body tells you what it's limits are and when it talks it's best to listen.  It's like listening to your wife.  Ignore the message and get ready for extreme and potentially prolonged discomfort.      

I'd be interested in whether JT feels such a long pause at anchor is conducive to better accuracy...and whether his research on accuracy/target panic has examined potential health factors associated with longer holds.  If this information is contained in one his videos, can you provide the video name?  Thanks.

Call him. He's very approachable.

[TSP]

Thanks for the incite about JT's system, my own system works ok for me so there's no need to bother JT with questions, but just to summarize  it seems with his approach the sight picture is allowed to develop in a controlled fashion while holding at full draw, until a 'psycho trigger' signals release.  

If the trigger period length/bow weight combo is reasonable for the shooter it seems workable.  But if not, it seems that problems (as mentioned above) could occur, perhaps not immediately but eventually.

For those who have used this system for an extended period (say 6 months or more) and also use typical hunting weight bows (say 45# and up), it would interesting to hear some feedback about results/pros/cons.

[cch]

I committed to his system the beginning of 2013. I use to be a snap shooter and a pretty good one. The problem I was having was when the pressure was on I would start short drawing. I missed two deer at under 15 yds and then killed one at 50 because I was calm and had time to set up the shot. The next year I shot a buck at 11yds but I probably only drew my bow 22" and I have a 29" draw. That is when I started Joel's system. I dropped draw weight from mid 50s to high 40s. I put a clicker on and didn't take it off for over a year. It helped so well I was much more calm shooting animals. It is nice to be accurate enough to evaluate what you are doing during your shot. I picked up my bow a couple of days ago and did some 46yd shooting. I hadn't shot since the last 3 D and I was grouping around 5" groups with 3 arrows but they were a foot to the right. I checked everything and it looked good so I tried changing my side plate and shot a 3" group from 46yds that was only 2" right and I can live with that. When I took the clicker off so I could compete in a state championship I did OK and won and broke some records but didn't shoot to my potential so I put the clicker back on for hunting. I feel much more confident with it in place.