a question for Arne Moe

[Dan Jones]

I've had target panic for years and I've not only read a lot about it from many sources but also tried a long list of "remedies" -all without success. I've decided to make one last effort to overcome it.  My question to you is this: What regimen would you prescribe for an effort to overcome the panic? In other words, what steps would you have them follow?

Thanks you very much, and thank you for all of your teaching work.   Dan Jones

[moebow]

Dan,

A problem to be sure.  There are many out there that are much better trained in this area than I am, Basham, Kidwell, Turner, etc. AND many "volumes" written on the subject. But since you asked me, here goes -- Arne's "take."

TP manifests itself in many different ways, but the most common seem to be releasing too soon (or uncontrolled release) and freezing up.  All, I believe, are a result of thinking about the wrong thing at any given time.  I am personally convinced that we need to shoot a shot sequence that is "thought out" consciously and step by step.  The subconscious is a strong tool but it is also lazy and tends to want to skip steps.

Before anyone jumps in and starts the "I shot this deer and don't remember anything until the arrow hit" discussion; I'd point out that this is NOT related to hunting or application, but a TRY at getting control of the shot --relieving TP.  Hunting and proficiency come later.

List your steps of the shot sequence -- write them down and post where you can see them as you shoot.  Stand in front of an "arrow catcher" (blank bale -- NO TARGET!!!!).  Now run the shot sequence as you perform them -- might take a light weight bow initially so you can take your time following the steps!  Speeding up will come with repetition and eventually you'll have the "sequence" memorized and won't need the printed list.

Think out EACH step -- EVERY TIME.  It might look like this(only a suggestion you have to build your own sequence):

1.  set stance
2.  set posture
3.  nock an arrow
4.  set string hook (hand/fingers)
5.  Set bow hand (grip)
6.  lift to draw
7.  Draw
8.  Anchor
9.  (   )
10. release
11. follow through (and evaluate final position)

Do NOT rush this, don't get lazy, Think EACH step EACH and EVERY TIME!!!! Take your time with each shot too!!

Many will also say that "blank bale" is not a fix for TP.  In and of itself, it is not.  What YOU do at the blank bale may be though.

Conscious execution of the shot steps EVERY TIME!!!  I feel you must train yourself to think only about the steps of the shot.  When a person only thinks about the target AND that is their full and only concentration, the subconscious takes control of the steps of the shot and will frequently try to "hurry" or "shortcut" the steps.  It will try to jump directly to the release ('cause I'm on target)or start jumping around from target to execution to alignment to you name it, which causes total confusion and a "OH just get rid of the arrow" or a freeze up because the body is getting too many instructions too fast and ends up not knowing what to do, so we don't do anything.

The subconscious is NOT your friend here.  Your conscious mind is your friend because YOU control it with direct thought.

SO,  a person must get control of the shot as a first step in defeating TP.  It will take a lot of time and patience on your part simply because you didn't develop TP overnight, it built up over a period of time.  It will take time to  be able to control the shot mechanics.  Here, standing VERY close to the bale and closing your eyes for the entire shot may help too.

Now, notice the step #9 I have above.  Guess what goes there.  That's right, aiming.  I for one do not, will not, and never will advocate aiming ANYWHERE in the shot sequence until AFTER ANCHOR!!!! You do "orient" yourself to the target but that is not "aiming", IMO. At that point #9 (if you will) you consciously set your aim (by WHATEVER METHOD YOU use!)  Then that one step and only that one step is passed to your subconscious And YOU CONSCIOUSLY move on to thinking about step 10.  Your subconscious will hold the aim you set so forget it and move on to consciously executing the rest of your sequence.

The arrow hitting the target is a FUTURE event!  YOU cannot control the FUTURE (no matter how hard you concentrate on it)!  You can only set the best situation possible in the PRESENT to ALLOW a good future outcome.  Execute consciously in the present, the future will take care of itself.

Work the CONSCIOUS shot execution at the bale, or in pilot jargon, run the checklist. DO NOT "check" on your progress by seeing if you can hit a bull's eye, for a good long while.  Yes, this will become boring, and you will start to feel stagnant and your curiosity will try to make you "check" on your progress.  DON"T DO IT!!! Can you say, "instant relapse?"

An arrow in the bull's eye is NOT a measure of progress!  Your measure of progress IS YOUR self analysis (be brutally honest) as to whether you executed a good shot.  Even a bull's eye can be a mistake so that is NO measure!!

Once you have gotten to a place where YOU feel you have control of the shot, then and only then you start a "bridge" program.  But that is for later and another discussion.

Well, you asked.     :D

Hope this gives you some "food for thought" and maybe a start at a remedy.

Arne

[Dan Jones]

Arne,  Thank you very much for your super prompt reply to my question. Your "take" does indeed provide plenty of food for thought.

I must tell you that I have tried the shot sequence approach several times. I put together a 9 point sequence very similar to your suggested list.  I can do each of the steps up to anchor with no problem, but it's at that point where I've been defeated. Or, perhaps I should say, my concentration fails. Whoosh - the arrow is gone before I can proceed to further steps in the sequence. Try as I may, I simply have not been able to figure out a way to stop the release. The closest I've come is by holding for a count of 3, but in my experience that only works for a brief time and then it too fails. I can hold if I close my eyes or look at the bow, but the arrow is gone as soon as I even begin to shift focus to a target. I guess that's why it's called "target panic"!

I truly appreciate your effort to help.

Dan Jones

[moebow]

Dan,

It does come down to "who's the boss?" You or the target?  If you can do it eyes closed, then you can do it eyes open IF!! YOU are the boss.  Think about holding that string whether your eyes are open or not.  Release is a conscious decision that only you should be able to make.  Keep your mind in the game!

Kind of a mind over matter situation.

Hope you can overcome it!!

Arne

[hart2hart]

X2 on all Arnie said and add/restate
1. Deep hook
2. Light bow
3. Keep practice fun ! (don't be afraid to go out
   and plunk 40/50 shots into a bare hillside
   60+ yds. away and focus on every step(except
   aiming) in your
   shot sequence 'til they are ingrained in muscle
   memory.Enjoy the perfect flight and shot
   feeling.Throw a few balloons in after you get
   really comfortable.
Long trip but worth the effort..been there.
Good luck,Mike

[tracker12]

Arne could not have said it any better than that.  My only advice would not to think of any of the next numbers until you have completed the one you are on (completely).  Most important is not to think of number 9 until 8 is lock solid.  

For my experience flinging 40-50 arrows can do more harm than good.  Practice the shot sequence and then shoot ten great shots.  When down go celebrate and get excited to shoot the next day.

[Producer]

What people are calling target panic as I understand it and Arne can way in on this is what we called flinching when I shot on pistol teams.When I practice I mostly shoot at four different spots on the target to keep my arrows healthy, meaning flecthing and nocks. If I hit the first three, if I am going to flinch it will be on the fourth because I want so badly to be perfect. If I say to myself smooth release before I let the arrow fly I will not flinch or have target panic if you prefer. Try it and it might help you.

[jsweka]

Arne - Great response to the original post.  That is very similar to what I got from Joel Turner's DVD and that is the only thing that has helped me with target panic.

And this sentence...."An arrow in the bull's eye is NOT a measure of progress! Your measure of progress IS YOUR self analysis (be brutally honest) as to whether you executed a good shot. Even a bull's eye can be a mistake so that is NO measure!!"....that's exactly how I feel now when I shoot.  I'm much more happy with a shot that may be somewhat off (e.g. hitting high or low) than one where I hit the bull, but I know I didn't execute the shot as I should.

[TSHOOTER]

Originally posted by moebow:
Dan,

It does come down to "who's the boss?" You or the target?  If you can do it eyes closed, then you can do it eyes open IF!! YOU are the boss.  Think about holding that string whether your eyes are open or not.  Release is a conscious decision that only you should be able to make.  Keep your mind in the game!

Kind of a mind over matter situation.

Hope you can overcome it!!

Arne

Arne said it....I have recently started my shooting sessions by going through each step in my shooting sequence and holding at anchor for 3-5 seconds and letting down.  I do this 2 or 3 times before shooting the 1st arrow.  I only shoot 1 arrow at a time.  Tightens up my shooting considerably.  I have found that I must conciously think about each step and leave the aiming to the subcounciuos.  I'm aiming from when I first pick a spot until after the arrow hits.

[nek4me]

TTT
Arne*s summary of the conscious vs subconscious shot control sequence as aid for TP resolution belongs on top. His is an easy to understand synopsis of the similar philosophy in the very long Target Panic Reality Check thread. Comments added from others helpful as well.

[McDave]

Arne,

Thanks to Nek4me for bringing this to the top, because rereading it brought a question to mind that I have been meaning to ask you.  Your step #9, which you expand on in your discussion, advocates not aiming until after you come to anchor.

The advantage of beginning to aim AS you come to anchor is that after you anchor, you will be pretty much on target, and will only need to make barely perceptible micro-adjustments as you hold.  For me, an anchor is more than just a spot to stop my draw.  It is also a physical "anchor" where movement in my bow arm stops; it is very difficult for me to consciously move my bow arm after I come to anchor without ruining my shot.

The disadvantage of aiming as you come to anchor is that it encourages target panic and premature release of the arrow, as you state, and I am certainly susceptible to this.  I have been successful at avoiding target panic by not beginning to aim until after I reach anchor, so I am convinced that this is the way to go.

BUT, when I start to aim I usually do not find myself to be pretty much on target, and have to make a conscious movement to get to the spot where the imperceptible micro-adjustments can take over.  If I try to make this movement with my bow arm, it usually ruins the shot.  I can pivot at the waist without ruining the shot, but I usually don't need such a gross movement, which feels like I'm trying to drive a tack with a framing hammer.

Of course, sometimes I reach anchor and find that I am miraculously pretty close to being on target when I start to aim, but that happens probably less than half the time.

What is your advice on making the necessary aiming corrections to get on target after you reach anchor?

[moebow]

Sounds like you have it figured out.  To me, however, the final aiming IS done with the body and NOT the bow arm.  That could be "gross movement" as you say but it could also be a very small movement BUT it should still be done with the body.

IF you oriented yourself before starting the draw, there should be little "pivot" motion, more likely a large or small bending motion depending on target height. (Unless you are swinging on  a crossing moving target)

So to really try to answer your question, point the "T" at the target with your body position. DO NOT move the bow arm in relation to your body.

One last image try.  When shooting a rifle or shotgun, do you adjust aim by bending the barrel of the gun or do you use your body to elevate, depress or swing on a moving target?  Or, do you move the entire and essentially straight device up/down or left/right.  Think of the drawn bow to be a gun and you will have it.

That help??

Arne

[McDave]

So I believe what you're saying is to practice making aiming adjustments with body movements to get on target after coming to anchor until it doesn't feel so strange to do that.  When I was aiming as I was coming to anchor, I'm sure I made the same movements and wasn't even aware of making them.  Hopefully, in time it will become second nature to make them after coming to anchor.  

Probably what I should do is to take another one of your suggestions and come to full draw horizontally, and then tilt at the waist to make elevation adjustments. I have resisted doing this because I have been advised against it by others, but it might help me to make the transition to making the body adjustments after coming to anchor, since larger movements would generally be required, and as you say, does help one to maintain the T alignment.

[moebow]

Dave,

For LEARNING, drawing on the horizontal HELPS with learning the feel.  Once you have that, you CAN set the 90* angle at the start of the draw, (by body position or even during the draw) draw to anchor, fine tune the aim and shoot.  This equals less movement later in the shot.  But the final aim needs to occur after anchor (with the "T" being maintained) IF you want to reduce the premature release (TP) problem.  IMO.

Not maintaining the "T" is really one of the biggest errors we as trad style shooters make.  Again, IMO.

Arne

[Dan Jones]

Arne,

Since this old thread got resurrected, I thought that perhaps you might be interested in my efforts to overcome the panic nearly 7 months down the road.

I developed a shot sequence as you suggested. I've shot about a million arrows into a blank bale, and I've done another million of Kidwell's draw and hold exercises. I've added Turner's "keep pulling" mantra. The net result?  I'm still shooting,  but I regret to say that the panic is still there, although maybe a bit reduced in intensity.

I can "run the list" of sequence steps and make an in-control, nicely executed shot . . . as long as I'm not aiming at a specific target or spot on a target. Once a target is introduced, control is lost and the arrow is released once my anchor is touched. Getting to anchor on a consistent basis represents progress for me, but the troubling lack of control is still present.  I've tried various things( not aimimg at all until that step is reached; the draw and hold exercises; telling myself it doesn't really matter if the target is hit or not; looking at the bow until anchored; a clicker; a bow with much less draw weight; closing my dominant eye etc.) to break the uncontrolled release, but to no avail.

In the original Archers'Bible Fred Bear explained target panic as when the eye triggers the release before the mind can control it. That certainly seems to be how the panic affects me.

The advice which you gave me was as good an approach to combating the panic as I've ever seen. Maybe if I had that advice when the panic started years ago. Or maybe once the eye triggers the release, it's virtually impossible to overcome.

I picked up a beat up old right hand bow at a flea market and I've been shooting it lately. It feels strange and unnatural, but there is no panic when I shoot right-handed. The right eye is apparently not triggering the release.  If, as I've heard many, many times, target panic is "all in your mind, " why don't I have it when shooting with the right hand? Why can't my mind just order my left eye to stop triggering the release when I shoot left handed? Is the cause of the panic truly mental, or physical? I suspect the latter.

Thanks again for your help and best wishes,  Dan Jones

[moebow]

Dan,

I will be the first to admit that others with more training in this area are WAY above me on this topic!!  I am still struggling with Froid's Libedo theory.  :>))

What I will suggest though, is you aren't encountering the "beast" right handed because it is un-natural to you and you are thinking about shot execution (what you are doing) and not the target.  I don't really believe it is an "eye" thing alone but a combination of Really concentrating on what you are doing with the weird way things feel during the shot with your "other" side.

See if you can compare WHAT you are thinking about (or feel) left handed versus right handed.  The clue MAY lay there.

Arne

[nek4me]

Dan,
I feel for you and what you are going through. I am lefthanded and right eye dominant and shot left with right eye closed with recurve and then compound with fingers and sights for about 30 years combined. Then 22 years ago I attempted to convert to right hand/right eye recurve but had target panic from the get go. I short drawed for a while and then gave up and went to a right hand compound and did ok using a release. A few times I dug out the recurve and tried again but still couldn’t get comfortable.

Recently I tried the recurve again with TP issues resurfacing and began researching solutions which brought me here. Due to some knee issues I have been limited to shooting 5 yds in the garage but started working with my old left hand recurve with both eyes open while continuing to search for the solution to  my right hand TP woes and haven't experienced TP left handed yet.

Just had knee surgery and looking forward to getting out and really working to bring one of these methods to the point of being able to concentrate on it. Ideally, I'd like to shoot right hand but will 6settle with left if necessary to make it more enduring and enjoyable this time. Was amazed at the prevalence of cross dominance and the number of archers who have been successful dealing with it.

Haven't put in a fraction of the effort you have and hope I won't have to to make this work.

[Dan Jones]

Arne:

Your "What are you thinking about" question is a good one.This sounds like a Nike commercial, but when I shoot right handed I just do it. I'm not aware of thinking about anything.  I can also "just do it" shooting left hand if there is no target. But once the object becomes hitting a specific target, the left hand shot becomes a tense duel with the panic.

Clearly one way to escape the panic is to somehow erase the struggling with panic years(in my case) and return to the pre-panic, "just do it" mode. If only I knew how to accomplish that!

nek4me:  Thanks for the sympathy,and good luck with your efforts.

Dan Jones

[McDave]

One thing that some of us have had success with is to anticipate the nervous or anxious feelings that occur when you attempt to aim at full draw, rather than trying to ignore them.  Instead, allow yourself to experience them fully, and recognize them for what they are, no better and no worse.  Continue to hold at full draw while looking at the target, and they will subside after a few seconds.  Then you can intensify your focus and complete the shot.

It would be nice to be able to return to the "just do it" mode, but that is not your reality now, and may never be again.  Ignoring issues or wishing things were different rarely works in life, and probably works no better with target panic.  Owning those issues is the first step toward solving them.

[riser]

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