Canting is helping -- or is it???

[Mark Grice]

OK, So here's a really weird question:

Could canting the bow be simply adjusting for bad form or (badly tuned) equipment?

I am canting my bow when I shoot. I find I am grouping pretty well if I cant to about 2 o'clock. That seems like a lot to me. I don't remember ever doing that before, but that's where I seem to be getting fairly good results.

My question is: Could it be that the cant is actually just covering for some other issue?

For example, suppose my arrows are too stiff and they fly to the left. Does canting affect the paradox so they actually fly higher with an extreme cant? Could this actually just counteract an arrow dropping because it is too heavy?

Or if I pluck the arrow and that should make it fly left, now by canting, I am turning the pluck into an arrow raise?  

Or am I really just totally over thinking all of this and I should just be happy to be grouping, and if it takes a cant to 2:00, then just do it and accept it?

I'm OK with it, but I don't want to be developing bad habits that will end up biting me later.

[McDave]

There is nothing wrong with canting a bow to 2 o'clock.  However, it is possible that it could be masking an error, too.  Probably would be a good idea to send in a video for Arne to evaluate, in case he sees something in your form that you could correct.  

Usually, a pluck will cause a right miss for a RH shooter.  Also, a pluck is usually fairly obvious, both to the shooter and anyone else standing around.

Things that you would be more likely to mask with a cant would include failure to come to full draw, so that your drawing elbow is not behind your arrow, which would cause you to push the arrow to the left.  Torquing the string would also cause a left miss.  If your dominant eye is not over the arrow, it could cause a left miss.  All of these things could be "corrected" by canting the bow, which moves the POI to the right (for a RH shooter).

[Mark Grice]

Thanks. That is some good input. I'll try to get a video. I think the "not coming to full draw" thing is probably true. I don't think I am there on the 40# limbs yet.

[McDave]

Video yourself from behind and above, and you can see for yourself if your drawing forearm is lining up with the arrow.  Two things that will help: rather than pulling straight back, rotate your shoulder back toward your spine so the path of the draw is more of a J shape; and align your body tighter to the arrow.  You want the angle between your bow arm and the arrow to be as small as possible at full draw.  You can help this by either closing your stance, or keeping an open stance, but rotating your upper torso so your bow arm shoulder is pointing at the target.  Learn to engage your back muscles and relax your arm muscles.  

One nice byproduct of this is that if your arrow is too stiff now, it may not be too stiff afterwards, because you will be increasing your drawlength some and thus increasing the energy transferred to,the arrow.

[Mark Grice]

Well, that was sort of depressing. When I started to focus on my shooting elbow and if it was being pulled all the way back, I couldn't hit a damn thing.

More than that, I found myself holding longer and my shoulder was aching at the end of my practice session.

So, I changed the limbs back to 30# so I can work on some things without damaging my shoulder. (But wow! I already miss those 10 pounds. I'm moving to a 20 yard shot again just so I can practice without having to work the arc...)

I also checked out some of Arne Moe's videos. Very interesting. I see that he finishes his draw differently than I do, so I'm going to try that "pivoting the shoulder" idea. Hard to get everything just from a video, but easier than just reading it. I've never seen anyone shoot a longbow like Arne does -- it almost looks like an Olympic recurve shooter. But, it is interesting.

Anyway, McDave, thanks for sticking with me. The posts are helpful.

[Terry Green]

form is,from the waist up.....canting from horizontal to reverse cant can be achieved if you have proper form and the magic T

[Terry Green]

I see questions arise about 'where' to cant, 'how much to cant', 'can you cant the same way twice'?  Target archers need to drive tacks and execute the same exact shot over and over....BUT!  Bowhunters, especially those that spend a lot of time on the ground need to be a bit more versatile IMO. They should be able to manufacture and deliver shots from the terrain and environment Mother nature throws at them. I hope to show that you can cant the bow how ever you want to, and that it doesn't have to be the same angle every time.  

Every person needs their 'back yard' shot', and need to be able to shoot how they feel comfortable, either vertical or canted.  Yes, it is easy for most to cant the same angle every time.  Once you get your back yard shot down, you can then add variations to your shot to capitalize on opportunities that arise in the field, as we most times have a small window of opportunity. All it takes is devotion and determination.

Also, contrary to what you may 'hear' or some folks claim....canting at different angles WILL NOT shorten your draw length if you are properly aligned.  I demonstrate this in The Bowhunters of Trad Gang DVD along with proper alignment.  Proper alignment makes for a stable shooting platform from many shooting positions.

Bowhunter's have also been accused of 'dumbing down' the sport of archery by non-hunting target archers.....but I say with a little effort and imagination, we can jazz it up pretty good.

These are extreme deviations of my normal shot....Its a bear target, but I'm practicing my low and tight hog shot.  The black shafts got lost in the internet conversion....but the target impacts are 2 inches higher than the fletches due to the camera angle.

Dial up.....
   Extreme Cant Angles I  
 
   Extreme Cant Angles II  
 
   Extreme Cant Angles III

 
Broadband.....
   Extreme Cant Angles

  Over the Pond......

[Mark Grice]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
I see questions arise about 'where' to cant, 'how much to cant', 'can you cant the same way twice'?  Target archers need to drive tacks and execute the same exact shot over and over...

Terry: Thanks for the input. A further question about canting: Doesn't it change the arrow flight? I guess theoretically, if I shot the way the English longbowman did, canting would not change a thing, since the arrow is always in the center of my fist.

But even though I shoot off of the shelf, my bow has a slight pistol grip, which means that the arrow is above my hand by a margin, and then I add a fur rest which raises it even more. (This is even more exaggerated for someone shooting from a rest). In this case, changing my degree of cant will affect my arrow's "aim" -- right?

I suppose if someone shoots as many arrows as you have, your brain makes the adjustment. But for someone starting out, I would think the cant angle being fairly consistent would be huge... am I over thinking that?

[mahantango]

Just to add to what Terry said, the other absolutely critical factor is arrow tune. If spine is correct and the arrow/bow combo is tuned then the degree of cant will make no difference. Also, the height of the shelf above the bow hand really doesn't matter, the arrow is simply going to go where it is pointed at the moment you release the string.

[Terry Green]

form and tubed equipment and no change in arrow flight