Bending at waist

[nhbuck1]

What's all this talk about bending at the waist when shooting? Won't this cause a collapse in the shot from leaning over?

[moebow]

Kyle,
It all works together.  The "T" I mentioned in the other post needs to be maintained!  So once the "T" is established, then the whole "assembly" works as one so elevation and windage adjustments are  set as a solid unit, not independent parts.

If you maintain the "T", you should not (even cannot) collapse.

Arne

[reddogge]

[nhbuck1]

So should I croutch like a baseball player in a ready position? Bend knees?

[moebow]

Your knees are dependent on the ground you are on.  The "bend" is at the waist or as red said by kicking a hip out.  Again, think of a short "T" that starts at your waist and then move the "T" to accommodate aiming.

You don't want to "hunch".

Arne

[nhbuck1]

My whole problem is I'm shooting to much again and noticed I was not doing rotational draw, how does this throw things out of alignment?

[moebow]

It MAY OR MAY NOT.  A linear draw will work too, I just feel a rotational draw puts a person into the back better/easier/more directly. A linear draw requires more "transfer" but is still a viable technique.

Arne

[nhbuck1]

I was starting to do a swing draw type method which seems to throw me out of alignment, make sense Arne?

[moebow]

Yes, the swing draw is also a very good technique, I use it often with moving and aerial targets.  The problem is that IF you don't have the "end position" (referred to as holding in most systems) as a "target"position/feel then you risk letting the "T" to drop out of perpendicular, and letting the shot be rushed (snap shooting -- the bad kind).

There are MANY really good techniques but the bottom line, I think, is you must reach a consistent holding position (many times referred as "anchor").  Without that, your shooting can be "hit or miss."

Arne

[slowbowjoe]

Along with Moe's great input, I think Terry Green has offered some helpful tips on this topic. Basically, as I recall, he was stressing that as long as your alignment is good from the waist up, the lower body shouldn't matter.

It takes a while(in my experience) to engrain that form, and then practice it from varied positions. I've found a full swing draw isn't the best style for me; it's been harder to establish a smooth rhythm to the whole shot sequence this way. And there need not be one specific way - I shoot something like a very shortened swing draw, yet not a fixed arm draw, or push pull draw either. Like so much with establishing form, you'll end up with what works best for YOU.

Just my 2 cents, FWIW.

[nhbuck1]

What do you mean hip out? Move hip towards target?

[moebow]

What do you have to do to move the "T" to the target.  If the target is lower than level, hip goes away from the target, if higher, move hip towards the target.

Don't make this too hard!!  What do you have to do to move the "T"???

Arne

[Jock Whisky]

Correct me if I'm wrong but bending at the waist means bending left or right, not forward?????

[moebow]

For elevation, Yes Jock.  But bowing forward has a use too.  That's bowing as in "bow to your partner."

Arne

[Jock Whisky]

" But bowing forward has a use too."

Arne please elaborate. Not disputing, rather interested

[moebow]

Jock,
At the risk of re-opening the "canting" debate (which I won't participate in simply because I think it is largely a silly discussion), and with the disclaimer of this is MY OPINION ONLY...  Here goes.

In the system I teach, once the shooter has gotten to full draw, a relationship between the posture of the shooter and the head position with the bow and bow string is established, the archer's "T".  At this point that relationship is maintained for the aiming step.  This is where the moving of the "T" by moving the body and NOT the arms or bow hand independently comes into play.  As discussed above, setting aiming elevation is done with a sideways movement (bend at the waist or "kick the hip out") while maintaining the "T".

By moving in a "bowing" movement, you can 1. get your eye over the arrow nock, 2.  bend to a point where the bow is nearly horizontal, 3. bend so you can shoot under a low branch, etc.

Really look at some of the "old masters" where they appear to be "canting" the bow.  But look farther and with more detail.  Look at the drawn string in relation to their eye, look at the string and how it aligns to their head position.  I think in MOST cases, the body/head position sets the "Cant" of the bow and not just the bow hand.

Before anyone "jumps" to the "you never could do that hunting" argument, I suggest that this is a TRAINING type practice to LEARN the technique and feel.  Once LEARNED all that can be done more directly and with little movement, but that is another discussion.

Arne

[John Kelly]

..would you go so far as to advise fine lateral adjustments with footwork?

[moebow]

If necessary but if it is relatively small, a turn/twist of the torso is less commotion.  Think swinging a shot gun, you twist rather than shift the feet most of the time.

Arne

[fnshtr]

I don't want to complicate this discussion as Arne is dead on as usual. However, I find for me the bend at the waist comes first, it just seems more natural than drawing and THEN bending at the waist to align with the target. In other words, I start by aligning my upper torso to the target.

This may be because 98% of my shooting is done while roving (stumping). Most of my shots are NOT on level ground.

Hope this comment is helpful to someone.

[moebow]

LEARNING vs. employing fnshtr.  You are correct that that is the way to do it stumping but many don't learn well when the environment is never the same.

Arne