Why is snap shooting more accurate for me vs holding?

[forestdweller]

I started out shooting the hold and have as many reference and anchor points as possible approach but for the past month have been snap shooting and my accuracy has gone up considerably.

Now conventional wisdom will tell you that holding at full draw is accurate along with having more reference points yet when I do come to full draw it feels like it takes significantly more concentration, endurance, and the ability to stay still and match your arrow tip in relation with your target.

With snap shooting or what I would rather like to call "fluid shooting" I just see the spot, try to stay as relaxed as possible, and I swing draw and either release when my mind tells me to or as I hit anchor (corner of lip).

For the heck of it I tested my snap shooting out to about 30 paces and was able to hit a tennis ball within about 6 tries. I tried the same thing holding at full draw and I was only able to graze it within about 12 tries.

Now my question is, why is snap shooting or "fluid shooting" (just constantly pulling without ever holding the weight of the bow at full draw) more accurate with some archers and holding at full draw more accurate with others?

I also noticed that I'm not nearly as fatigued after a shooting session when snap shooting and get a much cleaner release because I'm never stuck at full draw and having to hold that weight for more than a split second.

I just wanted to get a discussion going as I used to be of the belief that you could never been any good if you don't hold at anchor but now I know that I had it all wrong all along.

How has your success been with each method?

[nhbuck1]

If i try to hold for longer then a second my shooting goes downhill as well, I just try to make sure i hit my full anchor and it usually goes where i want if im doing my part right, I always shoot instinctive

[McDave]

Two different games.  Like the difference between throwing knives and playing pool.  You could never "hold" and throw knives: you have to throw a knife with one fluid movement.  While you can slam one in occasionally while playing pool, the best pool players are very methodical, planning not only how to get the ball in the hole, but how to line the next shot up at the same time.

It just so happens that either game can be played in archery: you might be best at shooting fluidly, like Howard Hill or Terry Green, or you might be best at holding and shooting into a 5" circle at 90 meters, like an Olympic gold medalist.  I doubt that Terry could do that very consistently, and I doubt that the Olympic gold medalist could kill a hog while shooting around obstacles in a bog as well as Terry could.  Not to say that you have to be a snap shooter to be a good hunter;  Rod Jenkins and Rick Welch have taken their share of game holding at full draw, just like Terry and Howard have snap shooting.

Do what you do best, and don't worry about the other guys; they aren't worrying about you!

[forestdweller]

I really like that analogy McDave.

I think it's useful to be able to snap shoot and hold at full draw but also have one style be your main shot (either snap shooting or holding).

What's really interesting is that there was a guy shooting FITA field in Ireland this past summer that was shooting really good and he was snap shooting barebow.

He was string walking none the less but he did not hold at anchor, it was all done in one fluid motion with no hold at anchor.

I wonder if the reason why Hill and other archers like him were able to shoot very very heavy bows is because they did not hold at full draw.

I feel like I can shoot an extra 10# as long as I shoot fluid with no pause.

[McDave]

I think you mainly shoot a self bow?  I wouldn't imagine it would be very good for a self bow to hold it more than a brief moment at full draw.

[Sam McMichael]

It appears that your form is good since you are consistently shooting well. Perhaps it works for you, because you don't over think the shot sequence. If your mind lines up the shot without a lot of re-thinking, and you let it go smoothly you simply don't have time to talk yourself out of a good hit.

I can't shoot well this way as my natural line up is to the right. I shoot a variation of split vision so that I can cheat a little and make sure I bring my arrow in line with my line of sight. That takes a second or two. I'm glad you are successful with this. I wish I could be.

[Jackpine Boyz]

I also shoot better with a fluid draw.  I do have to be careful that I don't start snap shooting though where I release before anchoring.  I worked with moebow this winter one day and have been really doing a lot of step by step methodical anchoring, etc on a blank bale.  When I shoot outside it is a more fluid motion and basically release after hitting true anchor.

As an aside, I shoot much better stump shooting than target.  I think the more I aim at a target repetively the more my brain gets in the way and I start running also sorts of checks in my head rather than focusing on the target.

[Trenton G.]

I also have difficulty shooting accurately if I hold. When snap shooting, I don't have time to think. When I hold, I find myself thinking why am I holding, I know that everything is right. It's just like in other sports. I swing a golf club fast, without pausing in my backswing. I don't pause when throwing a ball. It's all one smooth motion.

I don't have an issue hitting anchor, but as soon as I hit it the arrow is gone. It just works out better for me. Granted there are some limitations to this shooting style, but I think that it's really good for fast shooting in hunting situations.

[KeganM]

These are just my experiences. I shot snap for years but never got as good at paper, 3D, or hunting as I wanted. I'm a crank for accuracy though, so if the following sounds overly anal, you've been warned lol.

When I switched from snap shooting I had two main issues (besides all the other bad habits): 1. I was overbowed and 2. I didn't have a shot sequence.

The over bowing issue leads to collapsing, so as soon as I slowed down I lost tension and the shot got ugly. I spent a month holding and then dropped down in draw weight. I dropped over 30# in draw weight before I could really start holding for more than a few seconds without collapsing for multiple shots (from 85-90# down to 50-55#). These days I shoot 40-45# for everything.

The second issue reared it's ugly head not long afterwards. I had ingrained the shot trigger of letting go as soon as I hit anchor, or just after, and couldn't kick it. I later learned this is target panic. My brain couldn't decide what to do while holding at full draw either so my body just tensed up trying to be still until I would just flinch the shot off (anticipating the recoil). At this stage I could still "snap accurately" (or accurate for me at the time) and went back and forth for months without improving.

I eventually got over it by focusing on the feeling in my back while waiting for the shot to go off, like Rick Welch teaches, and my shooting improved. This worked on local 3D and in the woods, as well as on paper. However, I didn't understand what I was supposed to be thinking about/focusing on during the shot/release and it lead back to full-blown TP once I found myself under competition pressure.

After a year of that misery I started using Joel Turner's methods from MBB vol. 4, the feather to the nose and mantra. After the first month or so my shooting came back better than ever, with some of my highest scores and best performance in the woods. Unfortunately, I got pig-headed and started deviating from a focused shot sequence. It lead back to snap shooting but I soon realized that "snap accurately" doesn't work for me, and never did. I had gotten used to almost compounder-levels of accuracy on 3D and went back to Joel's methods. It's been a lot of work but that was several years ago and it's been a gradual, albeit sometimes slow, improvement since then.

No one can say what exactly works best for you other than your results. If I could offer one bit of advice it would be to stick to shooting paper for a while. It's honest and surprising- who knows, you might be a better snapper than gapper. Paper doesn't lie, and you wouldn't be the first! It's not for me though, and I wouldn't have known until I tested this stuff with scores and 3D in addition to my beloved stumps.

Like I said though, I'm a struggling self-taught accuracy crank, take all of that for what it's worth lol!

[forestdweller]

Hey Kegan! Thanks for the post!

Actually I think I figured out the solution to my problem and it will probably sound silly to most people.

The problem that I had was that I was too tense and uncomfortable at full draw because I was using a thumb behind the ear anchor along with touching the corner of my lip along with the cock feather touching my nose and it was giving me a lousy release and a lousy slight picture. It never felt comfortable for me.

While snap shooting I got rid of the thumb to below ear anchor and everything felt more comfortable.

I started to hold at full anchor yesterday without placing that thumb into the nook below the ear and next to the corner of my jaw and my accuracy and comfort increased ten fold.

I can actually see the point much better in my peripheral vision using split vision and my release has improved tremendously and I'm not creeping due to the increased comfort.

I feel like for me the thumb behind the ear while my middle finger is touching my lip "locks me up" too much basically and gives me a lousy sight picture.

I recorded myself using a thumb to below ear anchor and noticed that I over draw the bow before coming to anchor using the thumb to below ear anchor and it causes me to feel cramped up and creep.

In the other video I shot yesterday just using a middle finger to corner of lip and feather touching nose anchor I can clearly see myself not creeping at all and my release feels and looks much cleaner. It's much more comfortable and I can comfortably expand through the shot now.

Right now I just use middle finger to corner of lip and cock feather touching the nose as a reference point and my accuracy and comfort in shooting is at a level it has never been before.

I don't regret trying out snap shooting though because now I feel I can hit fast shot's or aerial shot's while also fixing my issue and not having to change anchors.

Thanks for the great conversation guys. It's crazy how just a simple change such as removing an anchor point in favor of another one can make such a drastic difference!

[Draven]

Originally posted by forestdweller:
It's crazy how just a simple change such as removing an anchor point in favor of another one can make such a drastic difference!

That's the beauty of non-competitive archery. You learn how to do things properly, you break down apart what you were told and you make them your own.

This video is one that resonates with how I understand instinctive / snap (continuous motion) shooting:

         

Maybe you are more of an "instinctive" guy than you knew.

[KeganM]

Originally posted by Draven:
That's the beauty of non-competitive archery. You learn how to do things properly, you break down apart what you were told and you make them your own.

That's what competitive guys do, too. They tweak "the basics" until they get the results they want. Competitive archery is just more demanding, where as recreational shooting allows us to set our own bar for success (even if that's just having fun flinging arrows).

[Draven]

Originally posted by KeganM:
   

Originally posted by Draven:
That's the beauty of non-competitive archery. You learn how to do things properly, you break down apart what you were told and you make them your own.

That's what competitive guys do, too. They tweak "the basics" until they get the results they want. Competitive archery is just more demanding, where as recreational shooting allows us to set our own bar for success (even if that's just having fun flinging arrows). [/b]

Yes, they do, but they don't have the freedom to change something so "dramatic" like taking out a point of contact from the anchor because of the imposed distances. Or at least is how I see it.

[BWallace10327]

I am unable to hold at full draw and shoot.  If I decide not too shoot before I draw, however, I can hold as long as I like and let down.  If I draw with the intention of shooting, the arrow IS going to be shot and it is done in a single motion, a lot like casting a fly rod.  Like any method, this has its pros and cons.  I realize people who hold and aim are usually superior shots at longer ranges, but am comfortable out to 20 yards (longer if I don't know the range) in most sitting/kneeling/standing/crouching shots I may encounter in the field

[Rough Run]

I never considered myself a "snap" shooter, or even a fast shooter.  I just focus on my target, draw, and shoot when I reach my anchor - I just try to stay smooth, and not over-think it.  But after watching that video, I think I am closer that style of shooting than what I ever considered before.  Makes more sense to me now, and may explain why a fellow shooter at our last club shoot commented, "You sure don't waste any time, do you?" as we were going around the course.

[forestdweller]

I'm torn in a way because I keep switching back to holding at full anchor thinking that it will increase my accuracy but when I go back to fluid shooting or "snap shooting" my accuracy is greater and my shooting feels more natural.

The problem that I have is that I have noticed from my accuracy and recording myself that when I hold at anchor I tend to creep slightly on most shots and my release is less than optimal.

When I shoot in one fluid motion it is impossible to creep so I hit full anchor each time with no collapse and my release is clean since my string hand never stops moving.

As far as accuracy is concerned I feel like I'm more accurate fluid shooting or "snap shooting" because I give myself less time to second guess myself along with the reasons mentioned in the previous post.

Another thing is that since I shoot instinctive there really is no point in holding at full draw. If I hold at full draw I start to sway left and right slightly and start to second guess myself because there is no gap.

I can see holding at full draw if one shoots a GAP or point of aim but since I shoot instinctive there really is no point in holding at full draw since I do not make any changes once I reach my anchor.

I also believe that with a high mass recurve that holding at full draw is more forgiving since the mass of the riser acts as a stabilizer. Trying to hold a one piece longbow or selfbow at full draw and you will sway even if just slightly since they weigh significantly less than modern recurves.

Even the top barebow guys and some Olympic archers creep to some degree (more so with the top barebow guys) as seen in even the latest barebow tournaments.

And as I mentioned before I saw a guy competing in the FITA field nationals shooting barebow and he was snap shooting while string walking.

I feel like if someone put's in more time to master snap shooting hand it's a superior method compared to holding at anchor since it's impossible to creep, there's no shaking at full draw since you are not holding at full draw, and you will have a cleaner release since your string hand never stops moving.

Just my $0.02

[McDave]

I think there is potentially a higher degree of accuracy holding than snap shooting, since that is the way the most accurate shooters in the world shoot.  However, that is subject to two caveats:

1.  That may not be the most accurate method for every single shooter in the world to shoot.  Some people may reach their maximum potential for accuracy snap shooting, while others may reach their maximum potential holding.  Probably the best shots of those who reach their maximum potential holding will shoot more accurately than the best shots of those who reach their maximum potential snap shooting, but really, one of the main goals in life is to reach your maximum potential doing something you enjoy doing, even though you know there is always someone who can do it better than you can.

2.  Holding is not the best method for doing everything there is to do with a bow, for example, hunting and shooting off horseback.  People can hunt fine holding, but probably can hunt better snap shooting.

It's just like the difference between sprinters and long distance runners: each has different muscles genetically designed to maximize either sprinting or long distance running.  The thing to do is to find out which kind of muscles you were born with and maximize the use of those, not worry about why you weren't born with the other kind.

[forestdweller]

I agree McDave. Another thing to consider is that you can use drastically heavier bows if you are a snap shooter resulting in a flatter trajectory and greater penetration.

My 44# longbow feels like it's 30# when I shoot in one fluid motion.

The longer one holds at full draw the more that weight builds up each second they hold it.

Probably one of the reasons why legends like Hill were shooting 80# bows as their daily shooting bow is because he was fluid and did not hold at full draw.

I know this is kind of random as well but I really don't think that most archers of the past (Talking pre 1900's) even held the bow at full anchor because as you mentioned earlier, using a self bow each second that you hold it you are losing power due to hysteresis taking place.

Practically zero hysteresis (weight reduction at full draw pretty much) takes place with modern materials like fiberglass, carbon and foam.

[BWallace10327]

Originally posted by McDave:
I think there is potentially a higher degree of accuracy holding than snap shooting, since that is the way the most accurate shooters in the world shoot.  However, that is subject to two caveats:

1.  That may not be the most accurate method for every single shooter in the world to shoot.  Some people may reach their maximum potential for accuracy snap shooting, while others may reach their maximum potential holding.  Probably the best shots of those who reach their maximum potential holding will shoot more accurately than the best shots of those who reach their maximum potential snap shooting, but really, one of the main goals in life is to reach your maximum potential doing something you enjoy doing, even though you know there is always someone who can do it better than you can.

2.  Holding is not the best method for doing everything there is to do with a bow, for example, hunting and shooting off horseback.  People can hunt fine holding, but probably can hunt better snap shooting.

It's just like the difference between sprinters and long distance runners: each has different muscles genetically designed to maximize either sprinting or long distance running.  The thing to do is to find out which kind of muscles you were born with and maximize the use of those, not worry about why you weren't born with the other kind.

Thanks McDave, I couldn't agree more.

[KeganM]

There probably is no one best method for hunting. Results speak for themselves: some folks do better one way and others do better another. Fred Eichler says he likes to hold for a second. Tons of compound guys kill stuff. Heck, the only two bow shots I've personally ever had on bucks were both killed holding and I missed a lot of deer snap shooting.

We each have to just find what works, and be willing to experiment a little until we get the results we're looking for- no matter how it looks.