swing draw vs bow arm out

[Deno]

I don't think anyone who hunts from the ground walks around with their bow arm up. I carry the bow pretty much canted, belly high and raise the bow to shoot in one motion. From the ground, shooting under branches and limbs is a given.

Pat B days it all

 "I've seen guys stick their  bows(long bows and recurves) and other shooting contraptions up in the air and pull down on the string to get to anchor them point the bow at the target. This is way too much movement for a hunter"

Deno

[nhbuck1]

now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?

[Pat B]

I usually sit in the stand and my bow lays across my lap with arrow nocked, bow hand on the handle, drawing hand on the string and arrow. I like a loose nock and I nock over the nocking point so hanging the bow is out of the question. I don't like the idea of hanging the bow anyway. I've had too many deer sneak up on me so it was hard to be ready without too much movement.
 If I'm stalking I keep an arrow in my bow hand against the bow. I feel uncomfortable walking with a nocked arrow.

[Bowwild]

Arm outstretched before I draw, no matter the situation.

I do this for form purposes but when hunting it is a pretty good "sneak draw".

One of my favorite still hunting tricks, really not a trick, stand tight up against a tree.  If you extended the bow arm out first, it will require that you roll your upper body towards the bowhand as it is impossible to reach the string if you don't.  With a swing/spread draw it is possible to stay up tight against the tree and come to full draw.  Full draw form with a swing draw is achieved in the last few inches of draw and should not make any difference to whatever one considers is proper form.  Some equate a swing draw with the draw arm out too wide.  Hill swing draw form is tighter than that.  nhbuck, never lock out a joint, they do not like that at all. In four parts,
 

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by nhbuck1:
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?

I'm far from an expert but this back tension thing is partially a myth and that's not just coming from me, that's coming from two other top level traditional archers as well.

If you take someone with a torn or even injured right tricep, bicep, or even forearm and have them draw back a bow they will be in for a world of pain even if they are using "back tension".

The arm muscles and back muscles are both engaged to a great degree when drawing back the bow.

As for holding when swing drawing, you can hold at full draw but if you shoot instinctive, what's the point?

It's just wasted energy and the longer you hold the more self doubt creeps in and the more form faults like creeping, creep in.

I have been playing around with something that I like to call a "half hold" where I swing up and hold after drawing my bow halfway and then when I'm done holding at that halfway point I draw to anchor and release in one fluid motion whenever I want to.

I've been working on it for hunting situations and for aerial target shooting and it seems to work just fine.

[Maxx Black]

I was doing the swing draw for a long time and when bow arm shoulder started causing so much pain and dropped weight in drawing bow. I changed to straight arm in front and draw to anchor.  Now draw weight is back up and no pain.
I did injure shoulder years ago at gymn doing weights ,and maybe my swing draw wasn't right. But I'm very glad to be shooting .

With a swing draw, the bow hand comes up ahead of the drawing hand.  If one starts to do what I call a drag draw, which is opposite, the bowhand comes up last, it can put some serious stress on the bow shoulder and the dorsal cervical joint in the neck.  I use the imaginary secondary image aim.  If I am on target when I reach anchor, can and should be practiced independently, how much more on target will I be four seconds later? The other question is, how long does it take you to move your bow hand an eighth inch if you happen to not draw perfectly on target? Some people's computers may run faster than others, but I do not believe that Howard Hill was completely unique, as others have been able to emulate his methods through his teachings with considerable success.

[Roy from Pa]

Just practice all of the above and use what works best for nhbuck1. There is no one shoe fits all answer.

[SuperK]

X2 what Orion said.

[kennym]

I agree with Roy( for once)    

[LBR]

Back tension isn't a myth, but it is something that is very misunderstood IMO.  I thought I knew what it was for near 20 years...I was in the "it's like squeezing an orange between your shoulder blades" group...wrong.  A Form Master is a great tool for learning to understand it (or finding out you don't know what it really is).

Good luck getting a shot at pretty much anything with fur on it in Northeast MS with a swing draw.  I've been busted while 20+ feet up a tree for blinking at the wrong moment.

I can and have used a swing draw--pretty much the only time I've found it to be useful (sometimes) is bow fishing, and I'm not as accurate.  Too hard to be consistent with it.

[Stumpkiller]

I practice swing (small game rapid shots), arm out (tree stands) as well as push/pull for when that style will be needed.  The latter is what I most often shoot targets with.

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by LBR:
Back tension isn't a myth, but it is something that is very misunderstood IMO.  I thought I knew what it was for near 20 years...I was in the "it's like squeezing an orange between your shoulder blades" group...wrong.  A Form Master is a great tool for learning to understand it (or finding out you don't know what it really is).

Good luck getting a shot at pretty much anything with fur on it in Northeast MS with a swing draw.  I've been busted while 20+ feet up a tree for blinking at the wrong moment.

I can and have used a swing draw--pretty much the only time I've found it to be useful (sometimes) is bow fishing, and I'm not as accurate.  Too hard to be consistent with it.

I think the level of accuracy one can obtain using a swing draw depends on your skill set and personality.

Like Jeff Kav. I have ADHD and can hyper focus on my spot during the last couple of inches of draw once I have swung my arm up.

This leads to much greater accuracy for me since if I have to straight arm draw or hold at full draw I lose concentration easily and lose that ability to hyper focus on that spot I'm looking at leading to a decrease in accuracy.

The mind starts to wonder and lose concentration the longer you stare just like the body starts to fatigue having to hold at full draw.

As for the back tension thing I'm really torn in regards to it because I can definitely feel both of my back muscles contracting hard during the draw but also know that my arms are working hard as well since they are the levers that are connected to the back.

[nhbuck1]

so the swing draw and push pull are not the same thing? does anyone have any videos or how to do the push pull draw?

[LBR]

Should have said I'm not as consistent with the swing draw, for the same reason though.  It takes what is normally broken down into several controlled steps and makes it basically one explosive movement.  I've made some very accurate shots doing it, but I'm not consistently accurate.  A straight arm draw doesn't require any more "aiming" than any other style.

Push-pull is a variation.  It can be done either way, as part of a swing draw or as a controlled, methodical shot.  

Everyone has their own opinions and styles.  To get a real break-down on what works best and why, talk with someone who has been there/done that, i.e. people who shoot bows accurately for a living and/or coach people to do the same.

I shot for an hour today and we were discussing this ability to shoot with different draws. Of course, my target form and my longbow form are distinctly different.  I reasoned that in music some people that are self taught can only play one kind of music style because that is all they know.  The flip side of that some can play jazz guitar and still sit in with a rock band.  I am classically trained, I can fly through Bach and Spanish music, but jazz is something way different.  Then Stanford Olsen contacted me and our shooting ended, he can do a variety of things besides being the finest American born opera tenor that ever lived as well.  Like use a completely different approach to art songs versus the rigors of the opera stage.  It is a separate skill set, that can be learned, just like with archers different things can be learned, it doesn't always come naturally or easy.    

[Ben Maher]

Originally posted by forestdweller:
 

Originally posted by nhbuck1:
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?

I'm far from an expert but this back tension thing is partially a myth and that's not just coming from me, that's coming from two other top level traditional archers as well.

If you take someone with a torn or even injured right tricep, bicep, or even forearm and have them draw back a bow they will be in for a world of pain even if they are using "back tension".

The arm muscles and back muscles are both engaged to a great degree when drawing back the bow.

As for holding when swing drawing, you can hold at full draw but if you shoot instinctive, what's the point?

It's just wasted energy and the longer you hold the more self doubt creeps in and the more form faults like creeping, creep in.

I have been playing around with something that I like to call a "half hold" where I swing up and hold after drawing my bow halfway and then when I'm done holding at that halfway point I draw to anchor and release in one fluid motion whenever I want to.

I've been working on it for hunting situations and for aerial target shooting and it seems to work just fine. [/b]

With respect , I'd suggest that your 'myth'  regarding back tension is pretty well established by a couple of Archers, a few bow hunters ..... just a few lol...
Watch Hill transfer the load to his back when he shoots ... John Magera wrote a bunch on it elsewhere some time ago ...

[toddster]

I use both to be honest.  I struggled with the "swing draw" (see potential injury) until I went to Bob Wesley shooting school.  I have used it to take several pieces of game, though usually from the ground.  Usually in a tree stand, I use the bow up, push/pull.  I have had few deer come in browsing away and just came up (swing draw) and harvested them.  For me it works best (in a stand) when I am "surprised" by the game, and just don't make a conscious thought of the thought.  Keep in mind takes practice, even from elevated position.

[forestdweller]

Originally posted by Ben Maher:
 

Originally posted by forestdweller:
 

Originally posted by nhbuck1:
now do yhou think the swing draw is much easier to get your back tension? also can you hold?

I'm far from an expert but this back tension thing is partially a myth and that's not just coming from me, that's coming from two other top level traditional archers as well.

If you take someone with a torn or even injured right tricep, bicep, or even forearm and have them draw back a bow they will be in for a world of pain even if they are using "back tension".

The arm muscles and back muscles are both engaged to a great degree when drawing back the bow.

As for holding when swing drawing, you can hold at full draw but if you shoot instinctive, what's the point?

It's just wasted energy and the longer you hold the more self doubt creeps in and the more form faults like creeping, creep in.

I have been playing around with something that I like to call a "half hold" where I swing up and hold after drawing my bow halfway and then when I'm done holding at that halfway point I draw to anchor and release in one fluid motion whenever I want to.

I've been working on it for hunting situations and for aerial target shooting and it seems to work just fine. [/b]

With respect , I'd suggest that your 'myth'  regarding back tension is pretty well established by a couple of Archers, a few bow hunters ..... just a few lol...
Watch Hill transfer the load to his back when he shoots ... John Magera wrote a bunch on it elsewhere some time ago ... [/b]

I have watched Hill and others like him shoot and it just appears as though they have good chest expansion throughout the shot which leads to a strong shot.

The guy that I was talking about that called back tension a myth is Peter Stecher and he is an archery instructor.

I like the term chest expansion better because if you expand your chest your arms and back can handle the weight of the bow much better.