Form hel please

[the rifleman]

I hope the above link works--my first post to youtube...

Arne and McDave, any feedback you could give me would be greatly appreciated.  For the past two weeks i had been hitting pretty good, but felt that my draw length had shortened from my usual 26".  When i check ed it it was 24"!  I had been tilting my head forward to touch feather to nose...  I focused on coming back to anchor and getting elbow behind me but think i over did it.
In the above video my arrows are cut 27" bop, so i think im back to around 26".  Sometimes im dead on, other im doing good to shoot a 7" group at 20yds.  I have one nagging problem-- i sometimes collapse and hit a foot and a half to the left.  I shoot left handed, 2 under.  My bow is 42#@28".  I had been shooting a 50# bow.  Please let me know if you need more info.

Thanks,. John

[moebow]

John,  Let's make some corrections one at a time.

Look at your feet in the video.  That's what's called a closed stance.  The problem with that is that your body is turned away from the target so as you draw, you have to turn away from the bow's center.  So first, I'd recommend moving the right foot back so you are at least square to the target if not a little open to the line.  That allows you to turn into the bow rather than away from it.

Second, Before you lift to draw, stand up straight and especially get your head up on top your shoulders.  Then, LEAVE IT THERE!!!!  Make your draw to your still and UN MOVING head.  Your string hand and string come to your head, the head does not go to the string.  Right now, you are moving your head all over the place and it's in a different position on every shot.

Forget the feather on the nose for a little bit, we can readdress that later.

I'd recommend just those two changes, for now, work on them for a bit then make another video.  I see other things BUT they MAY go away if you open the stance and get your head up. So let's see what that does and we can go from there.

Arne

[the rifleman]

Thanks Arne!
I had been looking at my stance and felt that i was lined up to the right of the target so must have overcorrected.  I will open stance a bit.
Ive had a problem with my bobble head and tried to solve w feather to nose, bit i will focus on keeping head up and drawing to it.  I'll work on these points and sen another video.  Thanks again!!

[the rifleman]

Hi Arne!  I have started to implement your recommendations, but want to try it for at least several days before sending a video.  My initial experience is that it seems to be cleaning up most of my left and right misses (I did have one collapse today to the right).
It has put the arrow much further from my eye greatly increasing my gaps.  My previous head position had evolved to get the arrow very close to my eye to get a 20 yard point on for hunting as I struggle with gaps--little vision in my right eye is why I shoot left handed--so I want to make things as easy as possible when deer hunting.  If I use a fixed crawl I can get my point on with the head up on top of my shoulders.  When learning this new position should I use the fixed crawl or just not worry about high groups?
Thanks again for your help---this definitely feels like I have better alignment already.  Hope to send you a video next week.
John

[moebow]

I suggest getting the feel of holding the head still without regard to high or low hits.  Your point on distance is MOST affected by arrow nock location relative to the eye at full draw.  BUT, you can only lift the string hand so far before you loose good positioning.  So, if you can't get to a point on you like using split, you switch to 3 under.  THEN if still more is needed, you have to go to string walking to get the arrow nock still higher in relation to the eye.

Get the still head first, then, if you need too, find a crawl that gives you what you want.

I've said this before, elsewhere, that I THINK too many sacrifice too much good form and execution, trying to find a MAGIC aiming solution.  Form is far more important than any aiming method.  Without good execution, no aiming technique will be able to "fix" that.

Arne

[the rifleman]

[the rifleman]

Hi Arne,  I've been working on form, following your recommendations---I have opened my stance and have been focusing on keeping my head up.  I do feel like things are much more in alignment than when I was slumped over.  I know form trumps all else and am trying to keep this as my main focus, but I am not confident with larger gaps (shooting a crawl in this video, but not sure that is my answer either).
Please critique and I will keep working at it.  I shoot the bow every day and really want to refine my form and shoot more accurately.

[McDave]

Arne is much better at interpreting form videos than I am, so I'll leave that to him.

I tried fixed crawl for a while.  The problem I had is that it requires much more discipline in keeping the bow vertical, or at least at a repeatable cant, than I care to devote to that particular issue.  I vary my cant based on the bow I'm shooting that day, or just because I feel like it.  Not much, just a couple of degrees, but enough to throw the arrow off when I'm using a fixed crawl.  Other people, like longbow fanatic 1, tried it and really like it.  The first I heard about it was Jimmy Blackmon's video, but he's way out of my class.  Another person who's way out of my class is Rick Welch, who shoots 3 under with a nose anchor, like you and I do, and doesn't seem to be bothered by the big gaps.  He's not a gap shooter, really, but he is aware of his sight picture, so his gaps are important to him in a subjective way.

Personally, if you have form issues, I'd advise you to work them out without using the fixed crawl, and I'm sure Arne would agree.  The more variables you can eliminate when working out form issues, the faster you can work them out.  It's really not important to hit your spot when working out form issues, and may actually detract from becoming aware of your movements.  Fixed crawl is an aiming method, and can be mastered in a short time once your form is right.

[moebow]

John,  That looks MUCH better.  I agree with Dave, get the form settled in first THEN worry about gaps and point on distance and crawls.  Your form and execution is much better here but really get it settled first.  Aiming comes after!

What I see in this last video is really quite good so "make it yours" -- THEN figure out an aiming method you like.  Aiming is only one step in about 10 and really not the most important.  So get the other 9 or so steps down then learn an aiming system, whatever works for you.

Think of it this way.  If you have a rife that has loose and rattling around sights, it won't matter how precisely you aim. Precisely aiming with loose sights will not hit the target most of the time.  In archery, YOU are the rifle and sights so your form and execution must be repeatable and consistent for any aiming system to be effective.

GREAT PROGRESS!!!

Arne

[the rifleman]

Thanks Arne!!  This feels much better also and I am not feeling pain in my bow arm shoulder after shooting, like had sometimes happened before.  I will continue to focus on the form element until it is repeatable and rock solid (I like the loose sights analogy).  I think I had seen in one of your videos or posts to let the bow come around in line with the string hand and have been working on letting this happen also.  I know from your videos that the anchor should be determined by form and back tension and not the other way around.  I do miss having another reference point, but I now know that I was using the feather to nose incorrectly as I was going after the feather with my nose...  At my new position my index finger lies just below my cheekbone and the thumb c joint is under my jaw.  I focus on getting my elbow behind me---will this be enough so that I will not need any other anchor references?  Thank you and Dave so much for taking the time to give me this input--it is really making a difference!  I've been at this several years and would go from shooting well to falling apart---I agree that without solid repeatable form accuracy is out the window.
Thanks again so much!!  John

[YosemiteSam]

I won't comment on the form part -- you've got plenty of good help there.  But if you're looking to shrink your gaps, consider a longer, heavier arrow.  Your 3D game won't be helped any.  But the 0-20 yard game gets a lot easier.  A 630 grain, full length arrow out of my 50# recurve has a 6" gap at 20 yards.  The same arrow out of my 45# recurve is almost point on at 20.

[the rifleman]

Thanks John.  Until recently i had been shooting full length carbons, but made up a batch of 27" bop cedars.  There is quite a difference in gap.  Hunting season is still 2 months away here so i have time to work on form and then figure out best aiming solution.