What poundege and arrow weight???

[Rick Boyer]

Just curious.. seen a show tonight that said you need at least 80# kinetic energy to hunt cape buff.. well Im asking you guys what would in your expereince be exeptable Poundege and arrow weight??? just a averege..

  gator

[Troy D. Breeding]

Gator,

It would take a bow that can shoot a 900 gr. arrow at 201FPS to hit the 80 in KE.

[Troy D. Breeding]

Forgot to say that if you dropped to an 800 grain arrow you would need a bow that could push it at 213 FPS

[Rick Boyer]

I was hoping some of these guys had thoughts on set ups that have worked for them.. 65# or so is all the bow I want to shoot but I will probly never get to hunt buff anyway I was just curious..

 gator

[Rick McGowan]

KE is virually useless for figuring out hwat bow and arrow combination to use for a particular species. Several years ago Monty Browning and a compound hunter were hunting water buffalo in Australia with me. Monty was using his 81# long bow and 1500 grain arrows, with Hunters heads. The Other guy was shooting an 85# wheel bow with 700 grain arrows. They calculated that the coumpound shooter had DOUBLE the amount of KE of Monty's setup, which if I remember was 43. To make it short Monty got better penetration. Some of that was due to the compound arrows being tipped with 3 blade punch point heads, but for sure not all of it. Rick

[O.L. Adcock]

Trying to set a standard by draw weight and arrow weight doesn't tell you the whole story and could be misleading as a starting point. There are bows out there that will out perform other bows that are 10+ pounds greater in draw weight with the same arrow.

IMO, discounting KE as a factor in penetration is drawing the wrong conclusions from the data and observations. It's not that KE isn't important, it's that other factors are MORE important. Broadhead design, arrow weight, and shot placement are probably on par with each other. Tuning and KE would fall after that. Pushing a broadhead through a substance takes energy...the more it has the further it will penetrate....It has to unless the world is flat. The problem is some broadheads due to design may require twice the energy to cut the same distance. So it's not that KE isn't important just other factors are more so. A bows only job is to transfer KE to an arrow and do so accurately. Rick in your example and if KE wasn't important, what if the compound had been shooting the same arrow and broadhead with identical shot placement? What if the longbow was 40 pounds and shot the same arrow and broadhead? KE has to be in the mix but it can't be used a the only factor.....O.L.

[bayoulongbowman]

Rick , I like all this hunting talk thanks...would the fact that monty shots are at about 12 to 15 yards a factor also...wonder how close the compound hunter was?? thank you Sir, Marek #78

[Rick McGowan]

O.L> of course there are lots of factors involved, thats the point I didn't make very well. Arrow weight, speed, flight, placement, broadhead design are all important. Unfortunatly KE is use as the sole criteria in some places and it dosn't work very well as a sole criteria. You can take two arrows that are utherwise identical, but one weighs 700 grains and the other 1500 and move them until they have the same KE, which one will penetrate better on the exact sme shot? The 1500 grainer.  
Bayou, yep Monty prefers those shots as most of us do, but his water buffalo, was probably about 22 yards, similar the the first shot from the compound. Rick

[Rick Boyer]

not realy trying to it pin point it to a certain wieght and such.. just thought that some of these guys that has hunted big game could shine a little light on what worked for them..

  gator

[Rick McGowan]

Gator, I typed out a long detailed reply to this and then got the "modem disconnected" message and it was lost to cyberspace, just got to love when that happens    Basically when someone says that you need X amount of KE for a particular animal, I wouldn't listen to any more of their "advice". They may have meant that 80#KE was the minimum legal rquirement and that is true in places. Under perfect conditions you could take a buff with your 65# bow. Rick

[Troy D. Breeding]

I feel there is one other thing to go along with arrow weight, broadhead design, bow poundage, and shot placement when going after Dangerous game. There seems to be one factor no one has talked about.

Draw length,,,, I consider this to be a major part when hunting bad boys.

Take two hunters pulling the same bow weight, using the arrow weight and design. One has a 30" draw while the other has only a 27" draw. Power stroke from the longer draw IMHO just gave that hunter an added 10+% advantage in recovery.

Don't want to sound like I'm slamming those that are draw length challenged, just throwing another factor into the game of success and recovery.

[Rick Boyer]

draw length challenged     I draw 26" thats not challenged.. it just a way to save on ceder..     I do understand this thu but I can build a recurve that at 65# at 26" draw will shoot a 550 grain arrow over 200 fps. bamboo backed of course.. this is where certain bows do have the advantege over others.. some of the higher end glass recurves wont shoot that speed at that poundege and draw length..

  gator

[Rick McGowan]

Troy, I agree that power stroke is important, but its one thing I hesitate to mention. I think that it is one thing, that is what it is and to try to "improve" it is just asking for trouble. On the bright side as Gator said, using the right bow for your draw length can compensate for any short comings(pun intended). Rick

[Troy D. Breeding]

Rick,

Totally understand the bow design part. Thats why I shoot one of O.L.'s bows.

Just wanted to point out that even though some contries require "x" amount KE to hunt certain animals it doesn't always require heavy bows to produce that amount of KE. Someone stated several years ago that 1" more of draw often equals 4-5 pounds of bow weight. My finding are somewhat less in the amount of gain but still a noticeable gain.

To give a prospective to all this, I used to draw a recurve 29" on a reqular basis. After switching to a longbow I noticed that my draw had reduced to 27". After adjusting my form and switching to a three piece longbow my draw is now a consistance 28-1/2" and if I think about it and really hold form I can again get 29".

I havn't changed bow weights. When I was pulling 27" I shot 57# at 27". I now shoot 57# at 28" and have had to move up one spine group. The extra 1/2" in draw may be the reason.

[Rick McGowan]

Troy, I asked Monty what his draw length was one time and he told me "it depends" on asked "on what", he said "on how big an animal I'm shooting at". At least he admits he has the worse form in the world, but it works for him! Rick

[Twang at Work]

Obviously, it is very hard to get to 80KE with traditional equipment, in order to be legal in RSA and maybe other spots for certain game (cape buff.).      

I have yet to find anyone who is actually doing it or has done it.  Think about what Troy is saying, 201 fps w 900g.  I don't think the trad. bow has been made yet that can shoot 10g per pound 200 fps, so you are looking at an excess of 90 lbs and consider a drop in bow efficiency at these wt. I guess we are up to a 100#'s to accomplish this.   :confused:    

My hat is off to anyone who has done this.  Please step forward and be recognized.  

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If I ever get MR.ADCOCK to create my Masterpiece of 90# I'll be certain to pass along ALL pertinent
information! LOL   Mike

[O.L. Adcock]

Mike, I'd have to hire 3 men and a boy just to string a 90 pounder! LOL...I'd much rather build a 75 pounder that shoots as hard as a 90....O.L.

[Charlie Lamb]

O.L. .... In your opinion is there a point where you quit getting out of the bow what you put into it?
I never got real scientific about it, but back in the days when I shot much heavier stuff it seemed like performance didn't improve that much after I reached 75#. It may have just been the bows I was shooting, but I never shot an 80 pounder that really impressed me.

[O.L. Adcock]

Charlie, I can't shoot those heavy bows to have any personal opinions. I've seen in a lot of testing on bows from 40# to 65# that the lighter bows are more efficient for their draw weight so it makes sense if that trend was to continue that a point may be reached where not much is gained with extra weight. Part of the falicy of set draw weights, arrow weights, KE and the like is bows are not equal. I've seen on several occasions where one bow will match or exceed another performance wise with the same arrow at 10#+ less draw. It's just not fair to exclude that bow because someone drew a line in the sand. Just no good way of doing it. In the old days, those using inadaquate equipment got eaten or trampled, nature sorted it out! LOL....O.L.