Long Heavy Arrows

[LBR]

Terry's thread was getting long, and a little off the subject (I am guilty of doing that myself), so I thought I'd start another.

I will need arrows that are approximately 31" BOP, hopefully in the 900-1,000 grain range, spined for a deflex/reflex longbow that is [email protected].  Where do I start?  I'd rather go on the experience of others than spend a fortune in shafting.

Thanks,

Chad

[Charlie Lamb]

Chad... Mark Land of Muzzy was a great help to me in this department. Think he has just the arrow shaft you need. Check with him.  

[Rick McGowan]

Chad, I myself have about $300 worth of shafts from failed experiments. Finding the right shafts is the biggest problem for buff hunters. They must fly perfectly, you should be able to get as many as you want, when you want and they should be a small diameter, in addition to the spine and weight being spot on. I'm still experimenting, but also have some that work well, they are just a pain to make. Rick

[AkDan]

not sure what a 23-64ths ash shaft would get you at that length but I'd bet it would be close. (you might also look into getting some 3/8" shafting if possible.  I know it can and was done!)  

couple other things to look at lam birch (CRINGE), Maple, Hickory, maybe even footing something.

Also there was a method a long time ago I saw once in one of my older books.  They drilled out the point end and added weight via a nail.  It was mainly to add strength, I'd bet you could really get a heavy set of arrows even heavier and it would be one heckuva way to add a tad more durability not to mention keep your FOC where it needs to be without finding a 250grn head.  

Just some ider's  Btw, what you planning on hunting you need such an outfit?

[Rick McGowan]

Lilhunter, only problm with going to the larger diameter shaft is penetration. The bigger the diameter the more resistance. I do have some ipe and double tapered hickories that I am testing that could meet the requirments. Rick

[AkDan]

Their is a new shaft coming out hopefully soon.  I've been told that at 29"es you can get 650-700 grains, at 30.5"es you'd have to be close to Chads desired wants in weight.

I guess the best bet then would be sweetlands compressed.  Cant remember whose making it but its on the kenai pennisula of Alaska, somewhere near soldotna I believe.  Sitka spruce from what little I had was slightly lighter then cedar so maybe sending them some hickory or ash to try out to compress might be the way to go for a specialty arrow, thats IF they cant get those weights already.  Not to mention the durability of them, you can pound them through 1" ply wood and only slightly round the ends off.  Their is/was only one problem I am really aware of with them.  They, if not sealed good, will swell.  Say you nick one shooting I've been told that spot will start swelling.  I have tapered some for a couple guys down in anchorage and have to say they were crooked as heck when they arrived here.  Not quite sure why but I'd bet that wasnt an issue when they were first made.

Whats Chad plan on hunting with that kind of setup?

[Rick McGowan]

I have some of those AFA Battleshafts, they are compressed Alaska yellow hemlock and yes they are very good shafts, heavy and small diameter. The only problem is getting them in the higher spine weights. They have no control over that and whatever they come out at is what they are. I could shoot the 100-105#'s, but I just can't get them. Chad is asking for use on water buffalo. Rick

[AkDan]

We are headed to anchorage, I'll see if I cant do some diggn for yaz.  I know they are a big hit in the valley and the penn. areas.  The interior guys are mostly shooting cedar/carbon/alum.  I know of one other who likes the hardwoods other then myself.  I'll let you know if I find anything out about getting more in higher spines after this weekend.  

I guess the only other thing I could think of would be a glass shaft.  I was thinking at one time they spined them and they are definatly waaay up their in weight.

[Troy D. Breeding]

Chad,

Getting that weight in 11/32" isn't really that hard with my hickory shafting. My current shafts are 81-85 spine, barrel tapered and with 160 gr point. They tip the scales at 900+ grains.    

One thing to remember. When you go that heavy in weight it often takes increasing the spine. My normal spine is 71-75. In arrows under 750 grains I can get by with 71-75 as long as I don't exceed 125gr points. Once the finished arrows exceed 750 I have to increase the spine by 5# to aid in the recovery of the arrow. With 160gr points I find that adding another 5# in spine shoots best.  

[LBR]

I had forgotten about those hickory arrows Troy--when I get my bow (talked to Marc about it last night) I will have you send me a test pack.

I'd wondered if it was just me when I discovered that when I went to a really heavy wood (in my case, ash) I had to go up in spine--reckon the extra weight of the arrow acts like a heavier point, or???

Either way, I will be talking to you about them hickory arrows.

Thanks!

Chad

[**DONOTDELETE**]

LBR,
If your committed to wood shafts only then this is a moot point. If not I talked with Ed at Alaska Bowhunting Supply and he informed me about his Grizzlystik arroz that are now out on the market. I believe the heavy version is at 15grs an inch and will go 800grns plus and up to 90lbs or more on bow weight. If you haven't read about them yet you can find more info in the vendors section on this forum. They sound like there tuff as a two bit steak, but also a little spendy I guess you get what you pay.
I haven't shot them myself yet but I'm going to give them try, the lighter version anyway. I've only shot wood arroz as long as I can remember but what the heck it's all cake!
I'll probably post in the pow wow later if anyone out there has some feed back on these new arroz.
Have fun
Out for now

[LBR]

Find anything yet Dan?  

Wilson, thanks, and I will be looking for your comments.  I am not committed to wood, or any particular material as far as that goes.  For something like this, I want to use the best I possibly can.  I have the bow picked out, now I just have to figure out the rest of it.  I'm in no big hurry just yet, but I need to get all the info that I can.

Chad

[AkDan]

Chad,

The guys I had hoped to hook up with were  enroute to a moose and duck camp while I was down their.  I have a few sets of arrows and they should be back here in a day or 3 (tues weather permitting).  I believe Jack Harrison has something to do with them as far as the $$$ side is concerned and I have someone who knows him quite well whose going to try and hook up with him, thats if he isnt in africa or also gearing up for moose season.  Kinda hard to find a hunter in these parts this time of year.  I'll keep poking my nose around down their for ya though.

[AkDan]

Chad,

Got a contact for them today.  My partner up here (the other "chicken hearted sheep hunter") has a set.  They have atleast 2 different grades.  The hunter grade is a parrelel compresion.  The other grade is a tapered compression.  He figures his arrows 28" bop is 800grns with a 160 ribby.  At your length and if you were to get the tapered compression, I wouldnt be suprised if you were OVER the 1k mark at a fraction of the cost and at the same amount of durability as any carbon!  Btw, I believe the maker of St Croix fly rods is the ones making the grizzly sticks.  I do know its a rod maker, just not 100% sure about whose doing it.  Eds a great guy but I prefer wood, not to mention the history behind them so if you aint partial this WILL and HAS worked!  I have photos of them pounding them through 1" thick ply wood with nothing but a slight rounding of the end (the dowels in the test were cut at a 90degree to the shaft and NOT tapered.  The edges are what rounded slightly).

ANyways, here is the info:

Alaska Frontier Archery
Steve Tanner
Nikiski Alaska
907 776-5462

I have some old battle shaft info of the Sweetland era I might be able to get Dawn photo copy for you Chad.  Thats if you are interested, shoot me an email and I'll have her get it copyed on tuesday.

[LBR]

Thanks Dan!  I'm not in a rush, just trying to find out all I can right now (prob. won't have the bow for a year).  Looked at the Grizzly Sticks--man alive those are expensive!

Chad

[LBR]

Okay, so far here is what I have to choose from.

Fiberglass

Aluminum (loaded with various things, including another aluminum shaft)

Hickory

Compressed wood

Footed POC

Grizzly Sticks

Carbon (loaded)

Anyone know the benefits or lack of with any of these?

Chad

[Rick McGowan]

Chad, here was my criteria; heavy 900-1000 grains, perfect flight, small diameter(no bigger than the broadhead ferrule) and I could get all the components I wanted, whenever I wanted.
I didn't try fiberglass, solid glass(fish arrows) are very low spine about 55#'s and heavier than I wanted. Hollow glass is hard to find.
Compressed wood, I just couldn't get in the right spine weight.
Hardwood, I couldn't find any suitable shafts when I was developing my buff arrows(five years ago).
Carbon, I could not find a combination of shafts to meet my criteria and no single shaft had enough spine when weighted up.
Footed poc, waaayyy to light and not enough spine in a small diameter.
That left me with a stuffed aluminum, I couldn't find an all aluminum combination that worked, but a carbon 35-55 inside of a 2219, with a weighted tip, flew perfectly, it weighs 960 grains, with an foc of 12%.
I'm still experimenting, but that was the best solution I could find at the time. Rick

[LBR]

Thanks Ric!  I was wondering about the fiberglass arrows--I thought they spined pretty low, but Monty shot them from a 90# longbow when he got his big bear?  

I may have to start from scratch here--now we got Grizzly Sticks (kinda hate to pay $160 a doz for shafting, but if that is what it takes.....), a friend in AK (Lilhunter) knows of some compressed shafts that may work, Rogue River Archery has footed shafts that will go into the 700+ grain range (23/64 tapered), Troy has tapered hickory, and????  To be honest, I'd love to do it with wood, but I won't let that be the deciding factor.  Best shooter wins, regardless of material.

Chad

[AkDan]

Chad,

Another thing you might want to look at...Silent Pond Shafts.  Mike does all hardwoods.  Not sure but he might be able to conjure up something?  He's in tbm.  I used to shoot his barrel tapered ash shafts and just might go back for a few more sets till I can get the footing jig made up this winter.  Most were impressed with them as everyone has heard the horror stories of how "tough" they are to keep straight.  I also think he does other woods for shafts, not quite sure, give him a call.

btw, I'll call tomorrow about those compressed, what spine range are you thinkn yaz monkey arms gonna need? (at 28)

Also they did at one time spine out fiberglass, got some neat old photos of them doing it.  Not quite sure what the heaviest they went was.  Just some cool history!!!

[Rick McGowan]

Chad, definately talk to Troy, he has sent me some hardwoods that will work real well, I just don't know if he wants to make more of them!
Monty uses the fish arrows on everything EXCEPT buffalo, with his bow he can get by with very low spine. I shot one of his buffalo arrows ONCE, but I won't shot is again the spine was so low that it nearly came off my bow sideways!
Easy Ed, has tried very hard to come up with a real big game shaft. I have tried a bunch of the earlier trials, but not the new 15 grain per inch version. With the taper they should penetrate very well. Rick