Booked for Water Buff

[LBR]

Extremist, have they given any numbers?  Bow weight, arrow weight, speed?  I've shot several BW recurves, had two myself, and the speed was good, but not exceptional.  I've never owned a Hill longbow, but I have shot a few, and owned and shot several Hill style bows.  I've never seen one come close to the same speed as a good recurve or even the faster longbows I've shot.  The new Black Widow catalog claims their longbow is as fast as "a" BW recurve, but I'm the type that would have to see it first.

Chad

[Extremist]

Well for BW, it's not that hard to get some good speed but nothing spectacular.  I unfortunately have no hard numbers for BW, hence the inquiry above.  If you are looking for a good, accurate recurve then they are very well suited.  Heavy riser wood (3.25lbs for PMA) with up to 32 layers.  Very attractive wood with a good balance in the hand and very little shock and a natural feel/aim in hand.  I have shot them and I do like them very much so, if you are a recurve kinda guy, but I must say they are designed to be a target style bow, that is for sure.  Their longbow isn't much to brag about but it's fairly fast for a longbow, though I think it follows their recurve engineering a little too much.  As for Howard Hill bows, they have a posted expected speed.  They "will generally shoot a minimum speed of 115 feet per second plus the weight of the bow (i.e. a 65# bow should shoot at least 180 fps and may exceed that minimum)."  Howard Hill bows are steeped in tradition and appear/handle as such.  Very light with bamboo limbs, handles nicely with straight grip, though other grips are offered.  I do like the way they feel as I think they are how traditional bows are supposed to feel.  Decisions, decisions.

[Troy D. Breeding]

Extremist,

Does Hill give any kind of numbers for arrow weight?

I've shot several of then an have yet to find one that will produce those kinds of speed with decent arrow weight (i.e. 10gpp or more) unless the draw was exceptionally long.

If I'm not mistaken you can find O.L.s web site in the vendor links of this site.

O.L. has made a recurve or two but basically sticks to longbows. Since he started the ACS line it's been all longbows. The concave/convex limb design is why.

[donb]

I just went back and read an old post that answered my question pretty well. As an experiment, I shot a fish arrow out of a 57# compound bow. I had to weigh the arrow on a baker's scale so it is estimated after converting 2  7/8 oz to 1256gr. Speed 148fps KE 61,and momentum .82 . So my silly question is already answered. The more efficient the bow, the less bow weight is necessary to achieve a given amount of KE or momentum. Brilliant! Lol

[LBR]

Not meaning to put down Hill bows, but that doesn't make much sense to me.  A particular design, with a given arrow weight (for example, 10 grains per lb) should have very similar speed when drawn the same length.  For instance, a 40# bow shooting a 400 grain arrow should have about the same speed as a 60# bow shooting a 600 grain arrow.

180 fps is pretty quick for a longbow drawn to 28" shooting 10 grains per lb.  I don't get quite 190 fps with mine, and I draw it 30.5"--that's with arrows that are just under 10 grains per lb (average about 9.5 gpp).  I can drop arrow weight and get 220 fps or better.

Not trying to argue the point with you or doubt your honesty, just the information you were given leaves a bit open for question.

The Hill bows are steeped in the tradition of Howard Hill, and no doubt he was an amazing shot with his own design, but there are much more efficient bows on the market now.  I personally like a grip that fits my hand, rather than having to make my hand fit the grip.

 

 The more efficient the bow, the less bow weight is necessary to achieve a given amount of KE or momentum. Brilliant! Lol

Yep, that's it in a nutshell as far as speed/momentum/KE is concerned.

Chad

[donb]

As Gene Wensel quoted Mark Twain "Predictions are hard, especially if they concern the future" . Taking that into account, my guess for minimum bow for Buff would be 55#(dark side bow),65# Adcock CX, 70# fast recurve,80# longbow, and 90# selfbow. These numbers determined by the SWAG method (stupid,wild __ guess) Lol

[LBR]

I've got an 85@30 longbow on order for them, but that's just in case I catch two of them standing side-by-side.  If my current one is any type of indicator, I should be getting 185+ fps with an 850 grain arrow--should do the trick.

Chad

[Rick McGowan]

Its a rocky road y'all have ventured on. There is NO simple answer on the minimum poundage for buffalo regardless of what kind of bow it is. There are simply to many variables. Not just the equipment, including the arrows, heads tuning and such, but no two shots at a buffalo are identical. You MAY be able to kill a buffalo with a 55# bow, but you may also pay a trophy fee for one that the PH has to kill with his rifle.

[Randy Cooling]

LBR,I brought home a Black Widow longbow from kalamazoo last year and tested against my PSAX.They both shot the same exact speed.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Rick is absolutely correct!  There is no such thing as 'too much' on a buffalo (or any of the other truly BIG game).  One needs to use all one can handle - every time.  As Rick said, too many vairables in the real world.

Ed

[Extremist]

Dr. Ashby, I happen to agree.  This is most likely why, since I can, I pursue such heavy equipment.  I spoke with O.L. and he can do nothing for me.  He doesn't even have any stock bows, and most likely wont for some time.

LBR, what 85lb bow are you referring to above?  With the Hill bows, just check their website.  This is where I found speed references; and they do fit my hand quite nicely if I do say so, but I'm not overly impressed with it.

donb, what is this "dark side bow" you speak of?  If it is a compound you might just want to put it at the same level as a standard recurve as it would be mighty tough to kill a decent bull with only 55lbs.  They have speed but not the torque of traditional bows.

[donb]

Yes that was what I was speaking of. But this is a traditional thread so I didn't want to talk too much about that side of things, but I based that number on the fact that I tested the fish arrow at 57# 28" and that very heavy arrow shot 148fps, which was a higher number than many heavy traditional bows could shoot the same arrow. Like Dr Ed said, the arrow doesn't know what is shooting it. This was not to promote that type bow, just to put different type equipment in perspective. I'm a wimp myself, so I will not be shooting any heavy bows of any type. I was encouraged by Dr. Ed's findings shooting a 60lb longbow and heavy arrows and getting good penetration on a Zebra though.? Scapula? Don't remember the details. The point was the heavy arrow with the modified grizzly got the job done. Which gives hope to weaklings like me. I do think we need to be honest when measuring performance and use good judgement when making equipment decisions. Which brings up the question "would grizzly consider manufacturing a 160 gr already modified head for purchase?" That would be nice. I've had great results with the 125gr version on deer and hogs with 450gr to 520gr arrows out of 47to 52# longbows and recurves.

[LBR]

Extremist, the bow I have ordered is a Chek-Mate Crusader take-down, deflex/reflex design.  I currently shoot a [email protected], and average 187 fps with arrows that are just under 10 grains per lb.  I ordered the Crusader 85@30--I may loose a little bit of draw with the heavier weight, although I used to shoot an 82# @ 32" (different form and anchor point).  I got 7 5/8" penetration with the 66# into packed dirt last season, after passing through a good sized whitetail (165-175#). Almost tempted to use it, but I know I can work back into the heavier weight, and will feel better with it when the time comes.

Chad

[Troy D. Breeding]

Chad,

I feel the same way. I have no doubt that my 65# ACS will do the job but, why go after something that big with the min. weight when I know in time I can handle another 10-15#.

[Rick McGowan]

I can tell you the way I felt when I got close to the first buff, to paraphrase a line from "Jaws", "I'm gonna need a bigger bow!"

[Basalt]

G'day fella's, I've been in the bush for a couple of weeks and just got back in. Looks like there's been a lot of good info flowing. You guys are light years ahead of me on bow design, arrow speed and such so I can't add much on that. Troy and Chad how are you doing guys? I reckon you've got the right idea, like Ed and Rick said those Buff are big critters and shooting as heavy a bow/arrow as you can handle accurately is the go. Denny,from what I've seen on the videos [ which are first class] you've got arms the size of my legs mate, so I reckon the poundage won't be a problem for you mate! Just a couple of things I'd add and that is that our Buff are big barrel shaped critters but they're grey/ black all over and can be hard to pick a spot on. Getting nice and close so as you can see that crease is a must I reckon. The right shot angle and the on-side leg forward is important to. The bulls like to spend a fair amount of time standing and dozing in the shade while they chew their cud. I've never arrowed a Buff in a wallow but know of a few bowhunters that have and I plan to build a few blinds over wallows this year.I've had a fair amount of success stalking them when they're doing this but I must say even though they look half asleep those big nostrils are still working overtime.Good cover is a real bonus. I once belly-crawled out on the open flood plain without a tree insight on the side of the Adelaide River. After a long wait I slowly sat up and wacked an arrow into a big bull. I'll never forget the look that Buff gave me or the feeling it had on my nevers as he went past at close range. I honestly don't think I'd do that again. Being in amongst the trees sure felt a whole bunch better. If you put that first arrow in the football size spot Rick, Don and Ed talk about there should be no dramas.
We head off to N.Z. for a Trad shoot and a bit of bowhunting in two days be away for two weeks.
 Bill.

[Dsturgisjr]

Bill, Thanks for the info. Really enjoy your posts!

Attended the Trad Expo at Kalamazoo. Black Widow brought my new Buff bow. 64", 84#@28" PLX td bocote. It will be 81-82# at my draw length. Bare shaft tuned arrows for a couple hours today. Ended up with 1094 grains. Made up 6 arrows and will shoot them for a week to make sure before I make up 4 dozen. I think I'll hunt rabbits and turkey this spring with them to become as familiar as possible with the set up. Got a chance to talk to Monty Browning and Randy Cooling for some good advise. Also talked to Bill Boczar (SP?) from Allegany Arrows - Dr. Ashby had spent a couple days with him and shared some good info.

Rounded up my old 3-D ASAT top and head cover to try and look like grass.

I can't wait!

[Randy Cooling]

Denny , You really got after the arrow building .All you had was parts last weekend.What did you come up with in the end for an arrow.1094 grs. is alot of arrow .I didn't think you would be able to get that high with your draw lenghth.

[Dsturgisjr]

Shot fletched shafts with broadheads today. After final tweaking ended up at 1057 grains. They fly very well with 5" RW feathers, but I think I'll use 5.5 RW on the hunting shafts for some extra steering.

Randy, sure enjoyed talking to you again. We have to get together on a hunt sometime.

I ended up scraping the double shafts after being too stiff. I wanted to be able to draw the broadhead to my knuckle and this complicated things. I ended up with a CX Heritage 350 shaft. From throat of nock to back of head 27.5". This will give me 27" of draw. 190 grain Grizzly broadhead on a 125 grain steel BH adapt. Three 70 grain weights inside the shaft screwed into the insert. On the nock end I've got 2 70 grain weights screwed into the nock adapt. The arrows fly beautifly and accurately. I am surprised at how fast they still are - thought it would dog out more, especially with a puny 27" draw. I'll shoot it through the chrono not that it matters.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Denny, please drop me the FPS number when you get it, I'm always interested in how my setup compares to what other guys are setting up.

I'm sure this bow is a sissy stick for you, but its taking me some work to get where I want to be with my semi-big bow...

Thanks!

Ryan