Has Dr. Ed Ashby named names yet?

[Ontario Longbow]

With his latest study has Dr. Ashby rated or ranked broadheads? In his first study the Grizzley was the best performer with several others doing Ok to poor. Does anyone know Stos was tested? Thanks ,, Frank.

[beachbowhunter]

I just read a report in an Australian bowhunting mag that was very interesting. He found that any of the regular two blade broadheads improved significantly when you put a "tanto" tip on them (look at the Stinger). However, the Grizzley was still king. He had some very cool photos of bones and how they split. The single edge of the Grizzley, pointing in different directions (like an "S") seemed to tear the bone which opens it up better for penetration. The double edged heads cut a slit that may pinch the blade and shaft more resulting in less penetration. Also, he found that you need to have the fletching rotate in the same direction as the cut of the Grizzley heads. If it was opposite, there would be less penetration. It was very interesting and perhaps, the guys who cut the angle down on the Grizzleys are making a mistake.

[O.L. Adcock]

He's got a lot of stuff going on including broadhead durability, can't go into details but he's finding some interesting stuff and some ways to improve them. Don't know when it will be published....O.L.

[Bacote Kid]

Dr. Ashby rules. Had a broadhead mfg. who I will not mention arguing with me the other day about penatration. He was saying Doc's tests were not conclusive. His head would penetrate better thru wood, steel drums and tires better than a cut on impact head. Then he said  

[Tree man]

If I may be so bold-Dr. Ashby's reports AREN'T conclusive. I think that you'll find him readily admitting that-the test samples  are too small and the variables too large. What Doc is finding are trends. Statistically it is possible that the trends from small samples are aberrations but the PROBABILITY is that they are valid indicators. Some of Dr. Ashby's reasoning has flaws IMO but overall he is doing us a great service by attempting to document actual results and find trends in how broadheads function.

[O.L. Adcock]

Tree man, it's good you pointed that out as many look at them as being difinitive. As his numbers grow, the aberrations will average themselves out. The good stuff will be his numbers on what % certain arrow/broadhead combinations achived double lung hits. When we see these discussions there's always some yahoo points to 1 success with a 300 grain warp 9 arrow and an expandable working on this or that. What we need to know is how often we can expect a combination to work. 50% won't cut it, no pun intended!   .....O.L.

[Frank AK]

To me it seems like he thinks 3 blades are inferior. But it is my honest openion that a wensel woodsman or snuffer is far superior to any 2 blade head out there. It opens up a better wound channel and its impossible for fat to plug up holes and leave no blood like happens with a 2 blade.

[Joseph]

Frank,  you need to remember that he is doing penetration testing on some of the hardest targets there are for bowhunting as far as penetration is involved.  For probably 95% of all of the bowhunting done his suggestions while valid, are overkill and then some!!  I think you would be much better off shooting a Moose with a Snuffer most of the time over his modified Grizzly that is only 7/8th" wide.  If I was hunting water or cape buffalo I would follow his advice to the letter but with most animals it isn't necessary.  I shot an Eland in South Africa last summer with an 800 grain arrow that had a 2 blade trade point on the front of it that was 1 1/8th wide.  The arrow went through the meaty part of the on side shoulder, cut a rib, through the heart, between ribs on the far side, and into the oppisite shoulder!  I thought that was pretty good on a 1500 pound animal!  Several other hunters that I met in Africa while I was there that were shooting compounds and where using Montec G5 broadheads and Razorcaps got complete pass thru's on Eland, Kudu, and Gemsbuck.  I think Dr. Ashby is doing very valuable work that is very relivent for all bowhunters.  That being said I think that there is room for trade off's when it comes to most bowhunting situations!  Joseph

[Frank AK]

Yes his work is great. BUT

7/8th wide is illegal to hunt with here in AK anyways. Its a 1" minumum.

I remember when my dad shot a deer right through the shoulder blade with a sharp bodkin. It was with a 2113 and a 60lb bow. It went through and lodged in the opposite leg and killed the deer dead. That was a treestand shot at more than 20 yards. We also liked to shoot at deer straight down. It was a spine, lung, and heart. Or a lung and heart only shot. More than 20 New Jersey and Michigan deer have died "perfectly" from those shots from my dads hands.

But what his tests do is give you an idea of 2 blade broadheads. The real question is would a 2 blade of the same width kill faster than a 3 blade in the boiler room or marginal shot? I think not..

[O.L. Adcock]

Good post and observations Joseph. Frank, I've used both 2 and 3 blade and you're correct, of equal width a 3 blade will do more damage if a total pass through occures. No doubt for the same reason 3 blades do more damage they'll also penetrate less, especially if bone is involved. 2 blades are more likely to glance off solid bone, 3 blades sharpened to the tip won't "glance" they "dig" and lock into the bone. Don't get me wrong, I like my 3 blades but I'm aware of their limitations and select my shots accordingly....O.L.

[Frank AK]

yeah I see what your saying. But we dont have problems smashing deer bones.

On elk moose and bears there is only the ribs I am willing to put an arrow through.

Smaller things like deer. I dont worry about things like shoulders. But yes I still go for right behind the leg.

It just shows that no 3 blade broadhead has killed a deer after a scapula hit. Spine hit or any other hit. But I am wondering how many other people have spine shot a deer or anything for that matter with a 3 blade with success.

[Ontario Longbow]

I'm looking for your opinions,, I love the Stos 160, I have a bear hunt for this September, would the Magnus 160 be a better choice for a (controlled??) 10 - 14 yard shot a a bear vs the Stos,, Thanks ,,Frank. P.S I've had pass throughs on several occasions with both heads on deer,, but what about bear?

[StanM]

Hi Frank,

To be honest I can't see a lot of difference between the Stos and Magnus.  Both are great heads.  If you love the Stos, no reason to switch.  On a different note, I've shot a few bears with my bows and have had the best blood trail with a Woodsman.  Good luck come September and be sure to post pics!

Stan

[East Coast archer]

Frank, FYI  the stos is made by Magnus. I saw this personally when I toured the Magnus facility in February. Not only does Magnus make the Stos, but the Wensel Woodsman as well.  It is amazing how many broadheads that Magnus makes in their little facility in Kansas.  The people there were very helpful and friendly.

[Ontario Longbow]

Hi East Coast Archer,, Thanks for the info, I wasn't trying to imply that one had better quality charactoristics. Both are excellent broadheads and however they have different designs. The Stos have a longer and narrower profile closer to the 3:1 ratio. The Magnus 160 is shorter and wider at 1 1/2". I've taken several deer with both heads. I really wanted to know if on a bear which is considerably wider than a deer if one would be better,, Thanks ,, Frank

[Ray Lyon]

It's all relative. I don't consider hunting whitetails with a 55# @ 28" draw an issue with just about any 2,3 or 4 blade you want. The penetration is just not going to be the issue. NOW, when I set my son up with a 37# @ 25inch draw bow to hunt whitetail, the broadhead principles discussed by Dr. Ashby come into play.

The closer you get to marginal set-ups for the game pursued, the more you need to look at the most efficient tools.

[John Havard]

Excellent point Ray.  Matching your arrows and broadheads & draw weight/draw length to the game being hunted is a great thing to do.  Congrats on hunting with your son!

John

[Frank AK]

Thats very true. But there is nothing you cant shoot in north america with a 55# bow and 3 blades. Not only just shoot them but get a better blood trail.

[John Havard]

Frank, you and Ray both make total sense.  However, many people who buy bows don't or can't shoot 55#.  Those are the folks who need to pay special attention to Ed's work - especially if they are hunting Alaska Yukon moose or brown bear or something else that's (much, much) larger than a whitetail deer.  

In Ray's excellent example of his son who is shooting 37# @ 25" at whitetails, he needs to think along the same lines as someone who is shooting 60# @ 28" at cape buffalo.  Maximizing penetration for those folks at the margin is a good thing.  As you so correctly point out, most of us don't need to worry about it.  But on the margin Ed's work is very helpful.

John

[Frank AK]

Yes it is helpfull for the two blade shooters.

But the clear point I am getting across is that three blades kill better and faster. Expecially on a hit further back. Now if you hit the shoulder bone with a two or three blade with the minnimul setup.

There is where you have an issue.

What would you rather get shot by? A 7/8th inch grizzly this guy talks up so much. Or a 160 snuffer.