Has Dr. Ed Ashby named names yet?

[Ray Lyon]

Frank,

No argument on the 160 snuffer causing damage. As I mentioned earlier, for my son and his closer to marginal set-up, I want all the things I can get in his favor to get a two hole wound (no bottom exit from a treestand can make for a tough to non-existant blood trail). This includes skinny carbon arrows, high performance 6 strand 450+ bow string, perfect arrow flight, 12 grain per pound arrow weight, whisper quiet bow and of course a two blade narrow Zwickey Eskimo's with back sharpened blades . His shot angle based on his 15 yard range limit is going to make for a thicker body cavity section to get through than if he were broadside on the ground.

I personally use a 3 blade Razorcap and it's an outstanding head and great for blood trails and creating havoc. However, I want to make sure that my sons arrow penetrates both lungs at a minimum, even if hitting a rib bone. Thus a narrow two blade head and the other items mentioned above are the recipe of choice for his set-up.

[longbowguy]

Frank AK:

You claim that '3 blades kill better and faster'. What is your evidence?

Dr. Ashby's evidence involves carefully analyzed shots on many hundreds of animals over a number of years. Most were on much larger and tougher game than the smaller deer species. But moose, elk and caribou can be large and tough, too, as can bear.

His work is far and away the most extensive and thorough on the subject of broadhead lethality. We should be cautious in disregarding it.

[pucci]

John, when you say "he needs to think along the same lines as someone who is shooting 60# @ 28" at cape buffalo" that's an unreal example right? I don't think you're allowed to do that...I think the limit in most african countries is about 80# and a KE of 80 ft.lbs according to Safari Bowhunting Consultants.

[Frank AK]

Originally posted by longbowguy:
Frank AK:

You claim that '3 blades kill better and faster'. What is your evidence?

 

Millions of deer cant be wrong.

Are you saying that a 2 blade in the heart/lung would kill better than a 3 blade in the same heart lung area?

Give me a break. Like the old saying says... I was born at night. But not last night.

[Frank AK]

Sorry if I sounded rash..

But be reasonable. Like the 45# minnimum draw weight a lot of places require for deer. So you can use better killing equipment like the snuffers and wensel woodsmans.

[Charlie Lamb]

Frank... A sharp broadhead in the vitals of any animal will kill it cleanly and neither multiblade or two blade will do it BETTER or quicker for that matter.

Getting that broadhead into the vitals deep is the issue and Dr. Ashby's studies suggest getting it to poke completely through the animal is important to clean kills.

I don't always agree with everything Dr.Ed says, but I do respect his vast experience... which far preceeds your birth at night, 17 years ago.

[John Havard]

pucci,

yes, that was a hypothetical example.  Sorry if it was misleading since I certainly would not want to hunt cape buffalo with a bow that was 60# @ 28".  However, if I HAD to do so I'd darned sure want to maximize my penetration potential a la Ed's studies.

John

[jindydiver]

Originally posted by Frank AK:
 

Originally posted by longbowguy:
Frank AK:

You claim that '3 blades kill better and faster'. What is your evidence?

 

Millions of deer cant be wrong.

Are you saying that a 2 blade in the heart/lung would kill better than a 3 blade in the same heart lung area?

Give me a break. Like the old saying says... I was born at night. But not last night. [/b]

Ed Ashby's study was all about getting the broadhead into the animal, not about what it did once it was in there. All the huge wound causing potential of any head is worth naught if it doesn't get to the vital tissue.
With my 55# longbow I will be sticking with the 2 bladed heads without a doubt.

[Frank AK]

Well as my last post on this thread. I will say I know for what I am doing 3 blade heads are the best way to go.

That means moose, bear, and carabou.

[Littlefeather]

Millions of deer cant be wrong.
 

That means moose, bear, and carabou

There seems to be a few hundred pounds of difference between your first quote and your second. I just have one question to ask respectfully, I might add. How many Moose, Bear, and Caribou have you killed with these three balde heads you mention. Dr Ashby is always needing help with his research. Email me and I'll pass along his contact info. Thanks for any help you may be in the future research. CK

[HARL]

I have never had a bear or moose stop a snuffer!I guess as long as you modify the heads the doc talks about and shoot 800-900 gr. arrows you will do OK.But if you don't shoot the heavy arrows this must change things drastically I would think.

[One eye]

As stated already, the good doctor's report is geared towards examining PENETRATION!  Should be very clear that 2 blade heads will out-penetrate 3 blade heads.  This is not a knock on 3 blade heads, as I am a big Snuffer user for whitetails.  BUT, when I chase elk and bears, the quiver will have 2 blade Magnus heads in it.  Use what you have confidence in.

BTW, thanks to the Dr. for all of his fine work.  I continue to learn from him all the time.

Dan

[Arrow4Christ]

IMHO a 2blade is better in most, if not all instances. Even on whitetails, I am concerned about bone hits. Consider the non-trad hunter Gary Borger (sp?). He shoots an 80# compound bow. I watched him hit the shoulder bone of a whitetail buck once and he got aweful penetraton. I know this is only one instance, but thats enough to make me use 2blades. I honestly believe that a 2blade hit deer will not run as far as one hit with a 3blade because with a 2blade, they don't feel the hit so much. One of the best arcguments for 2blade heads came from Markus of German Kinetics. Here is a link if interested.   http://perfectbowkill.com/html/broadheads.html

[Arrow4Christ]

BTW, Gary was using a 3blade fixed blade head. I believe it was made by NAP.

[DarkeGreen]

While I agree with using 2 blades for better penetration when you don't have enough bow, I think some of you need to stop and consider what you are saying.

I am testing 2 blade broadheads on deer of all sizes and a buddy of mine switched after he became involved in traditional hunting. He has been using two blades when hunting with both longbow and compound for a few years now.

Based on my experiances and his to date I can tell you there is a big difference between 2, 3, and 4 blade kills and the time it takes deer to expire on simular hits.

Even with modern bows and equipment it is pretty well known what works best on whitetails. Many local guides will not let people use 2 blade broadheads due to all the issues they have had trying to recover animals. When hunting from the ground as I do this is greatly amplfied.

With that said I know 2 blade will work and they can get the job done very quickly on perfect hits. However, physics dictate that 3 and 4 blade broadheads will get the job done quicker when penetration is equal, hit are in the same place, and both arrows exit. To believe otherwise is misguided.

I believe Dr. Ashbys are valuable and have a place in bow hunting. I also know from studieds conducted on simular issues regarding handgun caliber and ammunition types there will be all levels of understanding by hunters and attempts to apply the information incorrectly. It is hard for some of us to understand exactly what the data he provides tells us. As noted above it only aplied to one factor on a limited range of animals. To try and apply this across the board would do an injustice to all of Dr. Ashby's hard work.

[DarkeGreen]

Does anyone know the calcium content of the buff bones compaired to Deer?

[Frank AK]

I hit that black bear in the shoulder blade and smashed it.

Ive seen carabou killed with snuffers and it puts a magnificent hole in it.

I am trying to stay away from the thread. But I want to let people know a three blade will kill better with the marginal shot.

I should have taken pictures of the blood trail my bear left. I guarantee you wouldent get that trail with a 2 blade.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Curt, if we ever get a chance to get together I could show you 5 photo albums full of big game killed with Snuffers that folks sent us over the years, stuff in there from rabbits to moose.  Lots of animals in the caribou and up size.  The biggest are AK moose, maybe 10-12 of them and bison, maybe half a dozen.  Of course that's all anecdotal and there are no specifics beyond maybe bow poundage.  I think guys get too fired up about this stuff, on both ends of the spectrum.  Ed's work is interesting, and useful when taken in context.  The key is to keep it in context. "One size fits all" no more applies to broadheads than it does to bow poundage.

Ryan

[Seven]

Dr. Ashby isn't testing to see which broadheads are the “best killers”, that’s not quantifiable.  He's testing the one thing that he can quantifiably test, arrow penetration.  According to his results it looks as though it is consistent that two blade broadheads will penetrate further into animal flesh and bone than three or four blade heads.  What you do with the results, if anything, is up to you.
It was stated above "physics dictate that 3 and 4 blade broadheads will get the job done quicker when penetration is equal, hit are in the same place, and both arrows exit. To believe otherwise is misguided."  That in my opinion is 100% correct.  But again the key phrase is "when penetration is equal".
Just my thoughts.
-Seven

[Frank AK]

And how many buffalo are 26 inches thick?

His 94lb longbow shooting 680gr arrows 180fps?

Sounds more like a 60 lb bow to me maybee less. It could have been his bow wasnt very proficient.

Take a look at the entry hole on the thread for my black bear. Thats a 145gr snuffer ENTRY hole. The exit hole had so much blood and gory stuff in it I diddnt take a picture. The bear squirted blood 3 feet on both sides of him. Just gushing and puddles. With a 2 blade you wouldent get that kind of trail I guarantee.