Bow Poundage for buff

[Ron Chambers]

What is the minimum bow poundage for buffs in Oz? Seems I am getting all kinds of answers. It would seem that bow performance with a given arrow would be more critical than the poundage on a bow?

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Ron, from memory, here's what some have used (approximately):

Monty Browning - 90#
Denny Sturgis - 90#
Dale Karch - 70#
Don Thomas - 78#
Don's mate Rosie - 78#
Corey Mattson - 84#
Rick McGowan - 85#
Bill Baker - 68#
Ed Schlief - 66#
Rik Hinton - 75#
John Teitzel - 68#

There are many more who have successfully hunted buffalo. The most common seem to be mid-70s to low-80s.

One US hunter got some bad press in our Sporting Shooter magazine, because even though he got a one arrow kill, the buffalo made three kilometres before expiring; they found it the next day. He used a 65# bow, but messed up by using a 3-blade head; sounds like a one-lung hit, and it was on an immature bull.

Similarly, my immature bull was put down with one arrow from my 63# Martin Hunter; the arrow was too light, but I was using a 2-blade head. Still, I was lucky that I destroyed the heart, and the buffalo only ran about 60 yards before dropping. Penetration-wise, if I hadn't hit the heart, it would've only been a single-lung hit.

The moral of the story is to err on the side of heaviness, both with arrow weight and draw weight, and make sure you use a 2-blade head.

Cheers, and I hope you nail one someday! Ben

 

[Al Kidner]

As Ben said Ron go towards the heavy end. I've never hunted them but know first hand mates that have. I've also talked to guides and outfitters about the same subject. In a nut shell, a sharp BH in the spot, heavy tuned arrows and a heavy draw will do the trick.
 
 G'day Ben, hope the Chrissy hols are looking after you mate. Good reply to the thread too. We must catch up in 07. Must be some critters need dusten... somewhere!

 Here is a link you might been keen on...

 http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=040196

 I think 75# @ 30" would do the trick...

 Happy new year, al

[Rick McGowan]

Ron, everyone bases their opinion on their own experience or what they have heard and of course both of those things vary widely. The size and condition of buffalo varies a LOT also. We had one hunter who knew he couldn't shoot a bow over 64#'s so he chose to make a very careful shot on a young bull and got a passthrough. I've also seen shots from bows in the 90# range that didn't make it through the ribs. The most important thing is shot placement. Use a perfectly tuned HEAVY arrow and a strong 3-1, two blade head. Almost all of the hunters that I have had personal experience with have used bows in the 75-85# range, I don't recall any of them saying they would use a lighter bow if they came back, BUT a lot of them said they WOULD use a heavier bow WHEN they came back. So take that for whatever its worth.

[Ron Chambers]

What weight arrows are guys using? How are they weighting the skinny carbons. I shoot the SST's and see where some have used them for buff. How do they get the weight up?

[mmgrode]

Don't mean to hijack your thread Ron, but I was curious what kind of draw weight you guys would look for in a 26" draw for buff? How much more weight should I go for? Thanks, Matt

[Rick McGowan]

IN my experience 800 grains would be the absolute minimum weight for the arrow, 900 is better. Mine weigh 970. The highest weight I have been able to get any of the skinny carbons up to and fly right at my draw and #'s has been 700 grains, thats why I don't use them. If you are shooting lower #'s or shorter draw you might get them to work for you. Getting them heavy is easy, getting them to fly right when weighted is the hard part. Monty used lead solder in his, but they weighed 1500 grains!
Matt, thats really hard to answer, its easier to say that you should be using as much as you can shoot accurately under pressure.

[Torben Jensen]

Ron try to read the thread "Buff bow" and the Ashby reports also.That would give you an idea of what is needed as minimum - and also some of the other factors that is also very important (thickness of shaft, arrowweight, type of broadhead, percentage of FOC, how well the arrow is tuned and so on) when seeking penetration. Talking bowweight alone doesn't give a clue since there can be an enormous difference between some bows. Just try to think about a straight limbed longbow versus Black Swan/Adcock CX/DAS with Samick extreme limbs. In some instances it takes between 15-20 pounds more on the less efficient designs to give the same performance. So what really counts is what speed are you getting with what weight of arrow. From my memory I think Ashby mention 140 fps with 850 grains to be the absolute minimum needed - more is of course better. I get way more than that with my DAS (read the other thread I mentioned above) at only 65#.
I go to Darwin after buff with that setup in June next year so I hope I will "live to tell" about it afterwards !! (LOL)
Torben

[duncan idaho]

read the das threads. excellent information provided by all, especially on buff hunting.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

My wife and I are going for OZ Buff in July.  Doing arrow weighting, matching, and bow selection.  She's pulling 69# with a Hummingbird longbow and a BW PLV longbow.  Mine are 75#.

Just got new safari grizzlystik arrows to fly well from her bow finally (3 - 20 gr weights behind the insert), still some work to get the bare shafts proper.   Karen's Hummingbird is shooting a 1031 gr 32" Safari at 136 fps at her 29" draw for a KE of 42, at .62 slug feet. Black Widow just about the same. OL Adcock is building us heavy ACS CX limbs to replace the ones the dog ate, but that's another story.

Lots of weight FOC, with a 75 gr insert, 125 gr adapter, 60 grains of weights, and a 160 gr head (STOS).

Think that'll do for Buffalo? Course, either of us could outrun the arrow, but maybe we'll get a slow buffalo.  :-) Amazing how these heavy arrows hit a bag target and go through it. - Jay Campbell, JD

[Mark U]

Jay, who are you hunting with?  I went over last summer with Barefoot Billy Bob Baker and Bad Arse Brad Kane (and Rik Hinton, Doug Chase and Bruce Drewes)and had almost too much fun.

Rik shot woodies, but Doug and Bruce used the skinny carbons from Cabelas that were like the old Easton pultruded arrows, while I used the Axis carbons.  They all were well up in weight, mine being 850 grains, with nearly 500 grains just on the front.  I used a Robertson Overdrive that pulls about 71 lbs. at my 30 1/2 draw, and it would smoke the heavy arrows.  Can't remember the numbers, but it was faster than Rik's 75# HH longbow.  I think Doug used the STOS, and he got some unsharpened and put a single bevel on them that went with the rotation of his feathers.  His arrows were sticking out the far side of both of his buff, with a 66# DAS curve.

BTW, if your wife is shooting a 69# longbow, you probably better not whine about her cooking.  Could be a whooping coming.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Hey Mark:  No question the Mrs. (Karen) is pulling more weight to 29" with her Hummingbird and BW longbows than any woman I've heard of, but I'm sure there's someone out there.  20 years of being a 3rd degree black belt will do that, I guess.  I just say "Yes Ma'm, can I have another?".  :-)
We're going with Don and Lori Thomas and Bill Baker.  Any advice gratefully accepted.  -  Jay Campbell, JD

[Torben Jensen]

Mark U I have a few questions since I'm going to Darwin this June with my DAS (similar set up as Doug) after Buff at Andrew Mackays place.
Have you any idea how they got those SST arrows stiff enough with that high FOC and relative low spine ? I have a hard time finding anything stiff enough (65#28,75" Samick Exteme limbs). I use Beman Max4 with a skinny carbon on the inside (kids arrow to increase spine)- but with app. 400 grains out front they are a tad weak bareshafted.
Please tell about your setup with the Axis (I guess spine 300 ?).How did you get 850 grains and what tuning method did you use (bareshaft, paper or ?). What broadhead and how much penetration did you get ?
Last : Any idea how/where Doug got those Stos without any grinding/sharpening done on them ?
Thanks - Torben

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Torben:  I am finding the Grizzlystik safaris to be extremely stiff at the full 32 3/4", even with over 400 gr up front.  With your set up (we have a few Adcock ACS CXs, which should be similar) I would think they will work very well, especially if you want them more around the 29" range.  Expensive, though. - Jay Campbell, JD

[Torben Jensen]

Thanks Jay
I have been giving them some thought and I'm sure they are tough and well made even considering the price. But my only "worry" is their very big frontal area. I understand they are a full 11/32 in the front end (can you please measure yours and tell if that is right ?) which is a lot more than the Max4 or Axis in spine 300. I haven't shot buff yet myself (and I know some have been succesfull with Grizzlysticks) but reading Ashbys report I suspect the thickness of the shaft is a big factor in penetration.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Hey Torben:  I measure the shaft itself at a full 3/8" O.D. (a tad larger than the insert face).  I agree that shaft diameter is important in penetration.  But, shaft weight is also important.  We have these at 1032 grains easily, and the momentum calculation seems impressive at .62 slg. ft.  I keep in mind that lots of the folks shooting buff are using wood shafts (Ipe and Purpleheart), including Don Thomas, and getting about 1000 grns, and I suspect those shafts are 23/64th.  Tradeoffs in every direction.  Rick McGowan has tremendous experience in this area, he may be able to weigh in. - Jay Campbell, JD

[Mark U]

This is Doug checking out the front third of his arrow that was on the ground after the buff broke it off.  This buff went 19 steps after the shot.  The middle third was lodged in the heart.

Torben, I think he just called STOS and asked for the broadheads unsharpened.  I used the axis 300's and went with a 125 grain steel broadhead adapter, then took two brass 100 grain inserts, tapped one for 8/32 threads and connected the two together with a brass screw.  Also used a big grizzly for the buff and penetration was to the offside ribs.  Bareshaft tuned my arrows out to 30 yards, and they flew great.  FOC was something like 27% or more.  I think Doug and Bruce used steel allthread rod to get the SST's heavy on the front.

[Basalt]

G'day Jay, I'm looking forward to having you and Karen in our Buff camp this year and I can tell you Mrs Campbell won't be getting any tip from me hey! LOL.
I was a little concerned about Karen's bow weight but now I'm sleeping just fine at night, no bad Buffalo dreams.
Hey Mark, good to see you here and good info. Yeh, Rick just wanted to kill his with wood, he was pretty happy about that hey!
Torben I was standing beside Ed Schlief when he shot his Buffalo with one of his " Grizzly Stiks"
out of his 66lb longbow.
The arrow entered just slightly forward of the centre of the shoulder and exitted the off side where the neck meets the shoulder. I think it was a "Safari" shaft and it was a "Silverflame" broadhead.

[Rik]

Since you guys are talking about heavy arrows, you should re-read Dr. Ashby's report, especially the part about arrow breakage upon impact. Dense, heavy wood shafts (ipe, Forgewood, etc.) significantly outperform carbon and aluminum when it comes to not breaking upon impact with a heavy buffalo rib.

That's one of the reasons I was comfortable using heavy wood shafts when hunting Mellville Island with Bill. The trick is to get narrow diameter wood shafts that are close to or over 900 grains and ULTRA-STRAIGHT.

[Ron Chambers]

I am going to hunting with Bill this summer and am now trying to figure out what kind of arrows to use. I am looking for something in the 900 grain range. Any tips will be appreciated.