DAS Bows-How is it possible

[Ron Chambers]

First of all I do not want anyone to take this as a slam on DAS bows. As a matter of fact it is just the opposite. I am going to be doing some buff hunting in OZ and Africa. I am hearing I need a 75 to 90 lb bow to hunt buff. I am also hearing that I can shoot a DAS bow 15-20 lbs lighter and get the same performance with a given arrow. If this is the case this will set a new standard for bow building. With all of the bowmakers out there it is hard to believe that this design hasn't been tried before. I think this will also put a damper on a lot of bow buiding business's . Why would a guy buy a bow when he can get a bow 15 lbs ligher with the same performance. Maybe I am missing something here and again this is not meant to be a slam on DAS bows. My next question is how do I get one. I want to shoot 65 lbs for buff instead of 80-90.

[Naphtali]

Let's take a step to the side.

When you mention hunting things that can stomp you, what I infer is that you seek penetration comparable to heavier draw weight bow from lighter draw weight.

Using information from the Ashby files, it looks as though you can create arrows whose penetration will exceed arrows available as recently as five years ago by significant amount.

Rather than parrot Ashby, a summary of enhancements would include:

- 3:1 ratio single-blade broadheads; cut-on-contact tanto point; single bevel; non-replaceable blades; HRc 50-52.

- Tapering carbon shaft; insert-shaft joint diameter less than ferrule; extreme forward of center weight distribution; total arrow weight at least 650 grains.
***
Using super penetrating arrows is not the same thing as using a bow that achieves enhanced energy management. But the result, as I interpret your query, is comparable.

Hope this helps.

[Ray Lyon]

Don't forget arrow flight. Some bows are easier to tune the arrow too and the DAS with a cushion plunger rest would certainly fall in that category. Get a super heavy arrow with skinny attributes like the Easton Axis or Beman MFX, proper point like the Grizzly/Magnus/STOS and high FOC and get that all flying absolutely perfectly straight and you'll have penetration that matches up with or betters a much heavier bow, less than perfect (but good) flight with a fat wood arrow shaft. That would include using a high performance string too.

Also, keep in mind the stuff you may have previously saw about a DAS on big game might have been an individual with a 31" draw. Some say an inch of draw in the power stroke is like adding 5# of bow weight. If roughly true, 31" @ 65# is like 80# @ 28 inch draw. Anyway, there are a lot of factors besides bow weight that need considering.

[Ron Chambers]

I would think bow poundage is bow poundage. I don't know physics but 65 lbs at 28 inch should be like 65 lbs at 31 inch. The limbs are still getting stressed to 65 lbs. I would think that there would be a point of diminishing returns on arrow weight. Would I get better penetration shooting an 1800 grain arrow as opposed to a 900 grain arrow? Back to my original question. Am I reading that the DAS bow will shoot an arrow faster than bows 15-20 pounds heavier using the same weight arrows. I am questioning the bow not the arrows. Most people talk about needing 75-90 lb bows and never mention the performance of the bow. If is is possible to get better performance from a bow weighing 20 lbs lighter then sign me up.

[Ray Lyon]

Ron,

There is a difference. Crossbows with their short power stroke are built in the 150-175# range for a reason. The english archers of the Middle Ages shot with anchor points back by their ears to get as long of draw as possible.

If you look at a force draw curve of two bows of identical make drawing 65# at 28" and the other at 31", there will be more "area" or energy stored in the one with the 31" draw. That equates to more performance available to go into the arrow.

As far as DAS shooting an arrow faster than bows 15-20 heavier??? Maybe, but go back to the first post. A DAS, properly tuned will shoot an arrow better than bow B that is not properly tuned. I'd tend to want to see the results done by someone like Blacky Schwartz does on his site where everything from bow to bow is done within more scientific parameters than to infer from others individual results that may be far from apples to apples.

[vermonster13]

Ray has most of it pinned down. You also have to remember that the limbs on the DAS are ILF and many millions of dollars have gone into developing them. Olympic style archery is huge business in most of the world especially with so many other places not allowing archery hunting. In Kores it is a national past-time and their Olympic results reflect this. Comparing those limbs to most made by the small bowyer shops we have and yes even Black Widow is small in comparison is a stretch because of the money invested in material and R&D by Hoyt, KAP, W&W etc. The ILF limbs are very efficient.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

I think there will still be fellows asking the other bowyers for heavy buffalo bows, simply because different bows will always have an appeal to different people.

[Rick McGowan]

Ron, think of power stroke this way, it isn't just how hard the string pushes on the arrow, but how long, the longer the power stroke the more time the arrow has to accelerate.
There is no point of diminishing returns as to arrow weight and penetration, there is a point of not being practical anymore. An 1800 grain arrows penetration would be awesome if it was flying well, the problem is tradjectory, if you can't hit anything with it, the penetration won't do you much good.

[Torben Jensen]

Ron the difference of 15-20 pounds I mentioned is comparing a "slow design" to a very fast. If you compare to a more average performing bow the difference of course isn't as big but still important imo. For some reason the Samick Extreme limbs on my DAS shoots very heavy arrows (850-900 grains) way faster than other bows I have tried.That also includes the WinEx limbs on my DAS riser (very good at light and medium arrowweights). I have shot Black Widow bows with great results for many years and love these bows.
But shooting my BW SA (new model) side by side to the DAS the widow is app. 7-8 fps slower shooting hunting arrows in the 550-65o grain range. Now here comes the interesting part : going to the very heavy arrows for buff (850 grains or more) the speed difference grows to app. 13-14 fps !! Thats something like 7-10 pounds of drawweight and you got to remember that the widow has very good performance.
The speed I'm quoting on the "Buff bow" thread was exactly what David (the maker of the DAS)told me I would get at my specific drawlength and drawweight. Then only differnce was he used a shooting machine with release and I shot the bow with fingers giving the "usual" difference of 5 fps on that account (slower with fingers).
I must confess i didn't believe the numbers he gave me back then (I didn't know him yet!)untill I tried it myself.

[Ron Chambers]

O.K I will buy your argument about longer draw weight because I do not know enough about it. I don't know anything about Olympic shooting either. Don't care to. I am just trying to find a bow to buff hunt with. If I can take a DAS bow at 65 lbs and have it outperform a bow at 80 lbs shooting the same weight arrow then obviously that is what I want. Where can I buy one of these bows.

[BigRonHuntAlot]

3 Rivers sells the Dala, Not sure about the Weight though.

[vermonster13]

You need to get a Custom from DAS KInetics to get the bow with limbs over 60#. Or you can buy a Dalaa and hunt for heavier limbs which can be hard to find.

[Ron Chambers]

I heard that they are not making anymore custom bows. I hear that the bowyer was backlogged so he quit taking order.

[vermonster13]

He is logged until July next year so he is still taking orders for now. Be aware you have to pay for everything up front.

You can have a Dalaa in a month though.

[Ron Chambers]

My hunt is in June, that won't work.

[Rik]

I hunted buffalo in Australia this August. One of my hunting partners (Doug Chase) used a DAS, lighter in weight than my longbow to kill two mature bull buffalo.

We chronographed the heck out of that bow and mine before the hunt, with arrows weighing from 800 to just under 1,000 grains. My bow is deadly and you couldn't pry it out of my hands, I heart-shot two Australian bulls with it (watch for the article in Bowhunter Magazine in 2007), but the speeds---and even more importantly---the arrow energy the DAS produced were simply amazing.

I've owned the best longbows on the market, all in heavy weights, and I've made at least 30 bows myself. My conclusion is that a DAS produces such incredible energy for the weight because of the foam core used in the limbs, in conjunction with the limb angles David designed into his one-of-a-kind riser. The same bow with limbs that have a heavier wood or bamboo core would not perform as well.

If you are going to hunt buffalo, do yourself a favor and buy the best DAS you can afford. You will be smiling as much and as widely as my hunting partner. Yes, I killed two bulls with my 75-pound Howard Hill, but they were absolutely perfect heart shots. If something goes the least bit awry with the shot, which is more than likely with Australian buffalo, you will be well advised to have the hardest hitting bow you can. That, in my opinion, is a DAS.

[Rik]

Correction to my post above. I said Doug's bulls were "mature." Actually, they were huge monsters. (Luckiest danged guy I've ever seen!)

[Cutty47]

I've got a custom set of Hoyt Kinetic Carbon/wood ILF limbs...factory camo in excellent shape...#62@28  on a "25 inch riser...on the DAS...

Well, you're taling about the BADDEST DANGEROUS GAME  BOW ever created...

If anyone is interested in the limbs shoot me a PM and we can chat...I'm going to list them or put them on Ebay soon to fill the ultra heavy DAS limb gap...

[Bowhunter4life]

PM Sent Cutty...

[Ron Chambers]

Rik, What was the poundage of Doug's bow and what was the arrow weight?