Carbon Arrow to fit inside Gold TIp?

[Jay Campbell, JD]

For Buffalo, I'm currently epoxying a 1516 easton Jazz aluminum inside a carbon Gold TIp big Game 100 to get a 910 grain arrow with 17% FOC. Flys perfect out of my 80# BW PLX and my wifes 70# Adcock ACS CX. At 29", I can't make it shorter to increase stiffness and allow more tip weight.

But I would like to increase overall arrow weight and FOC. To do this, I need an arrow to epoxy inside the Gold TIp BG 100 that is stiffer than the 1516 aluminum. What carbon arrow (if any), is the same Outside Diameter as the 1516, so that it will fit perfectly inside the Gold Tip carbon?

Thanks! - Jay Campbell, JD

[Tilzbow]

Jsy,

The skinniest carbon arrows I know of are the Easton Axis and Beman MFX shafts. These shafts range from 17/64 to 18/64 outside diameter which is too big. I think you may be out of luck but maybe someone knows of a shaft I don't.

Good luck,
Scott

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Hey Scott:  I'm hoping maybe a kids arrow, but then again it might not be any stiffer than the 1516.  My local shop had a carbon shaft that fit, I think called a "240", but they said it had been discontinued.  Was in the cast off bin, so I didn't pay much attention. Thanks - Jay Campbell

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Thanks, Mike:  I'm going to Cabelas in Milwaukee this week, so maybe I can check the fit out.  Plus, I have the option of using the 55-75 or 75-95 Gold TIps if the 100s are too stiff.  But, I can go up another 200 grains in tip weight, and also leave the shaft full length if necessary, so I think I can cover it. I would like to get over 20% FOC and over 1000 grains. THANKS! - Jay

[davidthearcher]

Have you looked at 3 Rivers Archery weight tubes? They have an 8 gpi weight tube that will fit your Gold Tip shaft. Shouldn't mess with your spine much, those Big Game shafts are reported to be spine friendly anyway.

In the vein of experimentation, I figured out that .25 caliber plastic airsoft BB's fit in a standard carbon shaft. They add a ton of dynamic weight (which will make your spine softer), I snug them in place with a short section of tube insert and a tiny piece of tissue paper just in front of the nock and made an 1100 grain 29" arrow with a 160 gr grizzly broadhead and 125 gr steel adapter. I can't recall FOC but it was a lot. My arrow went through my Block foam target like it wasn't even there.

-dave

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Hey Dave:  The 3 rivers heavy tubes change dynamic spine for me quite a bit. Also, they distribute weight all along the shaft, making it harder to get the 20% FOC I'm looking for. The 1516 aluminum insert shaft doesn't even give me the spine I want at the poundage we're shooting.  But, if the SST will fit inside the GT, it should do the trick. THanks - Jay

[mmgrode]

Jay,
You could try packing the shafts with fine grain salt to really beef up the weight. You might have a little trouble with consistency, but for a heavy shaft it's worth a look. Add to that the heavy tip weight, you've got quite an arrow there. Cheers, Matt

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Update:  I bought a few doz. 230 SSTs from Cabela's (the SSTs are discontinued, get them while you can). They fit perfectly in the Gold Tips, at 15/64ths. A 29" arrow with the SST epoxied inside and point weight to overcome the spine flew well at 1200 grains.

That's exactly what I was trying to build.  but, the arrow just feels "slow", even out of my 80# BW.  Of course, it is!  And, it carries tremendous momentum.  Still, my wife and I decided to stay with our 910 grain Gold Tip/easton 1516 set up for Buffalo.  We've been shooting them a while now and they fly dart perfect bareshaft, and hit what we're looking at.

Maybe when we step up to cape buffalo the SSTs will come out of retirement. THanks for all the input and help. - Jay Campbell, JD

[Torben Jensen]

Hi Jay

I think I have the solution to your problem - at least I can tell you what I did to make my own buff arrows. I had the same problem being that I wanted more stiffness without adding way too much overall weight and at the same time wanted  more FOC.
Solution : You cut a section (I used app. a third of the full length) off the SST and glue it inside the Gold Tip shaft at app. the middle position or maybe a little more to the front than midway. That way you accomplish the following :
1. Get max. stiffness because the section is glued in the middle where the paradox "goes on"
2. You can get the total weight at whatever you want by choosing the length of the arrow inside
3. The foc goes way up (especially if you glue the SST in so it covers from app. midway and going a bit towards the point) because you take out a full length shaft
4. You can fine tune the stiffness and foc by choosing where you glue the part of the SST inside - it just takes some experimentation.

Personally I use a part of a carbon shaft (kids arrow) on the inside of a Bemann Max4 and get an foc at app. 20% or a little more.
Hope it helps !
Torben

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Torben:

I had read about your design before, and the part that troubled me was the concern about the epoxy bond giving way without something to hold the carbon insert tight. But, the idea is sound for sure.

Here's what I've done to try to use your idea and address my thoughts.  I took the Gold Tip big game 100 at 30", and a 12.5" piece of a SST 230.  I had to guess, but took 5 50gr. weights behind a 13 gr. aluminum insert, and a 125 gr steel adaptor and 160 gr. head. This puts the SST piece just 1" past the center of the arrow toward the nock, but it butts up against the weights behind the head. Thought is that the epoxy will hold better if it is held in place against the head assembly.

Anyway, it gives a 1,015 gr arrow, with 24% FOC.  First few shots seem outstanding.  Lots of testing still to do.  If it holds up and bare shafts, could be the ultimate buff arrow: super thin, super stiff (.200 deflection, or 120 pounds), FOC extreme, and very heavy, and very durable. THANKS! - Jay Campbell

[Torben Jensen]

Hi again Jay

Sounds like a good idea what you have done. The part I don't like about it is the total arrowweight and therefore also the trajectory is a little to much. I realize buff hunting is a short distance game but I want to be able to use the samme arrows for hogs too on the same trip (longer shots on smaller targets makes me want a flatter trajectory).
I don't think you need to be concerned about the shaft on the inside moving if you have a good fit and glue it in with epoxy. The first arrow I made in that fashion have shot hundreds of shots and been bounced of hard surfaces and such and it stays in place still. You can put in a good amount of epoxy in the Gold Tip shaft before you insert the smaller shaft (also covered before you insert it). That way you make a small "wall" of glue in front of the inserted arrow piece. That will never move.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

OK, Buffalo Arrow folks:

The 900 gr Gold tips we have, (1516 aluminum shaft epoxied inside) at 17% FOC, fly dart perfect.  But, never satisfied, I kept thinking and with the advice of Torben Jensen, built a 1010 gr Gold tip, with half ( 12.5") of a carbon Cabelas SST 5/64" shaft epoxied into the point end, butted up against 250 grains of screw-in weights, a 125 gr adaptor, and a 160 gr head.  24% FOC.
 
Geez, they fly nice, and bareshaft perfect, and "feel" even better in flight than the other ones.
 
The only concern I have is whether the epoxy will be able to hold up.  I rushed the first few with 5 minute epoxy to see how they would fly (5 hour cure only), and two of them rattle already.  But, I'll make some up with the good stuff and let them cure right, and we'll see.

Jay Campbell, JD

[Robertfishes]

Jay, I have 10 uncut AFC Max-5 2300 and 12 uncut AFC 2200's carbons. The 2300's fit inside a 5575 Gold Tip with a small ammount of slop and the 2200's are even smaller. I got these from the Gainesville Bear Archery factory back in 1997 and never used them. They are "old style" carbons that used outserts so they are really skinny. If you want them I can send them to you.

[Jay Campbell, JD]

I've got 4 doz 230s, hard to believe I'll use them all.  I'll take the 230s, though rather than have you toss 'em. :-) - Good to hear from you, Robert. - Jay

[Robertfishes]

Jay, these have 2300 on them. E-mail me your address and I'll send them to you.

[mark land]

Actually the 240 will fit much better in those shafts, the nominal ID of most carbon arrows is around a .242 and the OD on the 240 shafts is a .238, that is what I have used and setup for some other guys and they will definitely add some weight and spine to your setup.  FYI, the OD on a 230 shaft is .228 and is much smaller then a standard carbon arrow ID.  Good luck, Mark

[Jay Campbell, JD]

Hey Mark:  I love getting all the specific information, thanks. The 230s fit well, although I'm sure the 240s would fit tighter. The 230s do allow for a very thin layer of epoxy glue between the shafts, which I think is a good thing, but I can't say yet. I do think that the 240 would require too much tip weight, or too long a shaft, based on the incredible flight I'm getting out of the 230s inside the BG 100s. Ron Weatherman suggested using "goop" for a glue instead of epoxy, because of its permanent elastic nature (I know epoxy remains somewhat elastic).  Maybe a good idea. Anyone know something about the best adhesive characteristics for gluing two carbon shafts together? - Jay Campbell.

[mark land]

We always used epoxy to glue them in, but it would create a hard bond that would crack as you flexed the shaft, but they shot very well.  We actually use a solid 240 shaft in building one of our bowfishing arrows and it comes out in a finished 30in arrow with nock and point adaptors at 675 grains with 125gr point for just that shaft alone and actually flies very well off my 56# BW.  Put that one inside a standard carbon arrow and you will have a 1000+ gr arrow that should be very stiff depending on what outer shaft spine you use.  You really need to get in touch with Rick McGowan, I sent him a bunch of shafts to play with and he has done alot of work with laminated carbon shafts for those buff hunts and should be able to enlighten you on what he has found worked best for him.  Mark

[Rick McGowan]

Mark, yup, Jay and I have been working on this for quite a while now! I started working on my buff arrow experiments almost 10 years ago now. I probably have $400-500 worth of failed experiments sitting here in my office. I do have those solid shafts right here and if I ever run out of the original shafts that I worked up they may well be THE future buff arrow(assuming I can still pull a buff bow).

[HACKSAW]

I would try vacume line hose available at car parts stores. It comes in many different sizes.
Rope also works well. plastic tubing also comes in many sizes. I think the small vacume hose would be the best. I am thinking about it for  my moose arrows.