water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results

[ozy clint]

okay, i shot a cow buffulo on the weekend and i was carrying the testing arrows with me so i was able to get some testing done....

this is her set up for the testing.
 

shots were taken at 15 meters. the 1st shot penetrated to about an inch behind the back of the point, that equates to about 5-6". it hit a rib and that's as far as it went. as you can see it broke the point off and the hafting was damaged. that brought this arrows testing days to an abrupt halt.
 
the 2nd arrow also hit a rib with similar a result.
 
 
needless to say the testing session was a short one.
so there it is, perhaps the doubters are right. it looks as though taking a water buffulo with a stone point might prove beyond the capabilities of a primitive arrow.

a penny for your thoughts.....

[tradtusker]

Interesting results
thanks for taking the time to put this up

How about next time taking a strong quartering away shot angle where you could get an entry behind the ribs angling the arrow up to the vitals ?

This was the shot i took on My Buff.. strong quartering away angle my arrow entered behind the ribs and stopped in the off side shoulder.
You would have to get complete arrow penetration though.

[tradtusker]

here's a pic of my buff to show the strong quartering away angle i hit him,

 

 id be interested to see how far a stone point would penetrate at that angle..

here's the Buff with arrow setup
the kill arrow is still inside

 

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Good testing, Clint!

[ozy clint]

one of the limiting factors penetration wise with stone points is the shaft diameter. these shafts were 23/64". you need the width for the haft as stone points have thickness.
perhaps it's possible with a semi primitive arrow, ie- one with steel trade points.

at least my curiosity is satisfied now.

[otis.drum]

pretty conclusive hey clint. bit of a shame really. i always had that feeling they might not handle it but i was really hoping they would!
what's your reasoning for the failure?
stone too brittle?
what were the weights of those arrows?
how did the fiberous skin go in the small serations of the stone point?

of course you couldn't use these points hoping to get between the ribs, but i wonder how it would go if you could sneak it in there?
did you do any testing of just skin?

is that enough questions for you?  

are the heads repairable? would like to see some testing on couple swine too  

[chrisg]

Clint, good on you for going the test route, glad you posted too. There is a world of difference between a big theory and hard evidence. I think your point about shaft diameter is a good one, the newer set ups all seem to indicate that very thin stiff shafts are better penetrators. As you say it is hard to mount a stone point that way. didn't Woody make a hybrid shaft with carbon and a wood footing? Thanks for keeping on with this and sharing your results .
chrisg

[divecon10]

Wow! nice head there Andy
Buff hide is really thick and heavy and with the ribs within the frame not a place u want to hit eg in a truck! When hitting any big animal on the road one should always aim the bull bar toward the last half of the animal if at all possible, at least there they will crumple, so as not to render the vehicle completely bugger up!
That heart shot of Clints was a pearler!
Bum penetration also works well with Buff! Ha ha they don't like that much. as does a shot in behind the ribs

[The Hawk]

Originally posted by Rick McGowan:
I think I am going to start a program to abolish the improper use of the word "buffalo" when descibing BISON, someone screwed up a couple hundred years ago and we have had to deal with it ever since!

TATONKA!      

[NorthernCaliforniaHunter]

Awwww man! I was hoping to see some red on those feathers! Thanks for posting Clint! (and good on ya for trying on a dead buff first! That would of been one pissed-off critter!)

[michaelschwister]

I think the point was too big and not pointed enough.  The "Bird" points of antiquity were really heavy game points.  Saxton pope and art young, as well as others (and friends who use stone points)found stone points penetrated better than steel points.  Not to pick, but that point looked too thick and too big.

Cheers

[Lucas K]

In some ways I agree, the "bird points" would allow for a smaller diameter shafts if nothing else...

Lucas

[knife river]

Originally posted by michaelschwister:
I think the point was too big and not pointed enough.  The "Bird" points of antiquity were really heavy game points.  Saxton pope and art young, as well as others (and friends who use stone points)found stone points penetrated better than steel points.  Not to pick, but that point looked too thick and too big.

Cheers

Did you see the "before" pics of the points on page 8?  I'm not sure how they could get "more pointed" without being as fragile as a hypodermic needle.  The l/w ratio was real close to 3:1, which is generally regarded as optimal for steel points.  You can't see it in the photos, but the cross-section was subtly diamond-shaped, which increases strength and reduces wind planing.  

As for shooting a water buff with something as small as a bird point (something in the range of 1" length and 5/5" width), yeah, you might get it to slide between the ribs, but there won't be a lot of cutting surface to work on the lungs.  What would you plan on finishing him off with -- a .22 short?    

[ozy clint]

believe me, those points were not thick! they are 1/4" thick, which is about as thin as they come for the width that they are.

the trouble with small bird points is how do you use them and still end up with an 800gr arrow while keeping it 'primitive'? it would be hard to find an ultra heavy shaft that would spine ok with a light point out of a heavy bow.

[Maxximusgrind]

Way to go,
 You may have decided not to pursue this adventure,but your experiments were entertaining and I'm sorry if they're over.
 I was rooting for you.
  Robert

[Lucas K]

I see your point

[michaelschwister]

I have killed hundreds of bovine, many over a ton with a .22 short blank driving a captive bolt.  Well technically I killed them with a knife through the carotid, the .22 short was used to stun them so they could be rolled and hung and stuck............

[knife river]

Originally posted by michaelschwister:
I have killed hundreds of bovine, many over a ton with a .22 short blank driving a captive bolt.  Well technically I killed them with a knife through the carotid, the .22 short was used to stun them so they could be rolled and hung and stuck............

That's very interesting, but you may have missed my intended sarcasm.  If a guy shoots a wild asiatic water buff with something as inadequate as a 50-60 grain stone point, will he try to get himself out of a tricky spot with something else equally inadequate?

I can already hear guys saying the native americans killed tens of thousands of bison with tiny stone points.  They certainly did, but that's an apples and oranges argument (i.e., they also used blind jumps, box arroyos, parabolic sand dunes, heavy stockades, horses, etc.).

[calgarychef]

Even though the natived did kill many bison with stone points I'd bet there were more lost than recovered.  

the chef

[Dryfired]

I think the job could be done with a stone point, but it would need a gut shot, patience and tracking. This is not really humane considering the alternatives, but it most certainly could be done. Given Clint's excellent results with Buffalo, I reckon he's the man for the job if a quick kill shot could be done. Then again, maybe it would be easier to sneak up on it when it is sleeping and hit the buffalo on the head with a big rock?