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Author Topic: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results  (Read 13657 times)

Offline otis.drum

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2009, 10:50:00 PM »
you'll need a camera man, i can cook too  :)
...otis...
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Offline NorthernCaliforniaHunter

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2009, 11:56:00 PM »
GOOD GOD! Please film this! I hate/love to watch!   :eek:    :scared:
"...there are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, it's melancholy, and its charm." Theodore Roosevelt

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Offline cheech1

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2009, 01:02:00 AM »
if you do try this don't take a backup gun. at least then the red mist will not come over you.
that little voice will not say just lob one in there i have backup behind me.
if you go old school go all the way or don't go at all

Offline Benny Nganabbarru

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2009, 01:22:00 AM »
I disagree, Jason. I'm not sure how many buffalo you've played around with, but at the end of the day, to me it is just play. Back-up is important, to me, because no contest between me and an animal is worth the animal taking my life (see, this is very much an individual thing - to somebody else, it may well be worth it); and secondly, with an animal like buffalo, where the risk of wounding is greater due to a number of factors, I believe it is best not to let it get away wounded - and mostly, when frightened or wounded, they just run away.
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Offline cheech1

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2009, 06:39:00 AM »
i did 2 seasons in arnhemland guiding. and you missed the point. with backup people can take shots that are less then perfect as they have somebody with a large cal firearm standing behind them for when they are wounded, agro or both. without backup you don't take less then perfect shots.
if you are using a 70-80 pound bow with heavy arrows and strong steel broadheads go for it but stone points there are to many variables as not all stone is created equal.

Offline Benny Nganabbarru

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2009, 09:50:00 AM »
Well, each to his own. You've got a good point; I've got a good point...The middle ground is for the bowhunter to be cool and well-disciplined enough to take only the right shot; of course, that is easier said than done. It's all just talk at the moment, and thinking, but if anyone could do it, it'd be Clint, and I'd be happy to look after him with the .416 Rigby, and not only him, but the buffalo, too. It doesn't hurt to think and dream, and perhaps one day the dream will happen - with a bit of action. Oh, and I guess you've sure played around with a good number of buffalo, too, so hat off to you for believing what you do based on your experience. Cheers, Ben
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Offline Ben Maher

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2009, 03:16:00 PM »
all these Aussies need to get together and put all this theory into practice....i'll bring my .223 and my 53# bow....Ben
" All that is gold does not glitter , not all those who wander are lost "
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Offline Ben Maher

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2009, 03:32:00 PM »
" All that is gold does not glitter , not all those who wander are lost "
J.R.R TOLKIEN

Offline cheech1

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2009, 04:48:00 PM »
just my 2 cents worth.
please spend plend a lot of time breaking heads on dead buff first. i think mr don tomas said it well if it does not work you can just roll it over and go home.

Offline Benny Nganabbarru

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »
Southern Ben - too funny!   :goldtooth:
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Offline Rick McGowan

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2009, 01:42:00 PM »
Heres MY two cents and they are based on A LOT of experience, with bows, buffalos, bowhunters and backup rifles. I really thing it would be a very very bad idea to try shooting a live BULL water buffalo with a stone head. Its a little bit on the borderline side as it is with the best of heads. I have spent DAYS lots of them looking for buffalo, that were shot with very heavy bows, arrows and steel heads. The danger is your choice and it is considerable. Its not really fair to living buffalo to start sticking them with things that are an experiment at best. An upset buffalo coming at you full speed, will make you wish you took up golf instead. It dosn't matter whether you have a backup file behind you are not, bad shots happen and in my opinion any shot with a stone head is not going to be a good one. Lots of people seem to thing that the big rifle removes all the danger, those people have no experience or they wouldn't thing that way. We had one guy that we repeatedly told NOT to shoot a buffalo in the head, with his super duper new .416, he did it anyway and the buffalo ran away not to be found. We have come close to having people killed several times from buffalo with numerous holes in them from .375's, .416's, .458's etc. etc. etc.. My partner very nearly got whacked by a cow buffalo that charged while they were stalking a bull, eight shots from the .416, so, me with the muzzle nearly touching her, before she quit and walked away, that was after she knocked a small tree over on top of him. He also had a REALLY big bull that had been wounded by a bowhunter two weeks before, just charge them flat out and eight shots from a .450 Marlin and the .416, with only a lucky spine shot stopping the buff against the tree the hunter had been using as rest. That lucky shot was the last one in the .416. Ask Monty Browning about his story demonstrating penetration on his dead cape buff. That was with his 90#, 1500 grain arrows and the long thin two blade Hunters heads. The first arrow sank to the nock and everyone was impressed. The second one centered a rib and barely sank to the length of the broadhead.......................................

Offline knife river

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2009, 01:00:00 AM »
Rick, I want to word this carefully.  What experiences have you had with stone points?  I don't mean it to come across as any kind of challenge, but rather as a source of good info based on real life experiences.   How did they fail?  Shattered point, failed hafting, poor penetration, etc?  I'm always looking to improve the things I make, whether they're going to be used on whitetails or buff.  Thanks in advance!
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Offline ozy clint

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2009, 01:54:00 AM »
everyone- please don't think i would go and try to shoot a buff without first doing extensive testing on freshly killed bulls to see if stone pointed arrows will handle hitting ribs and still gain enough penetration.

rick- i think what your saying is that we shouldn't use anything that can't penetrate ribs everytime. i agree. but if a 1500gr arrow from a 90# bow with a two blade head failed then what hope have us mortals who can only pull 70# got. even modern gear can fail to perform on high percentage shots.

the next step is to gain data on the performance of stone on buff ribs and see if it matches the performance of steel. till then i don't think anyone can say it can or can't be done.
this thread has been going long enough and no one has chimed in saying they have even shot at a dead buff to see what happened. no one who said it shouldn't be done has come up with the broken points/arrows to prove why. for all we know the right point, arrow, bow combo could work fine. just my novice oppinion.

can anyone post some pics of the cross section of the ribs? lets see some ribs that have been hit with conventional b/heads. at least then those who haven't seen a rib, that includes me, can behold the task being asked of a primitive arrow.
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Offline Benny Nganabbarru

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2009, 05:42:00 AM »
Perhaps I've given the impression of being too brash; I concede that Rick's wisdom is the best way to go: that is, to shoot into a fresh carcass, and then try on a cow or young, immature bull pending the results of the first activity. I absolutely understand that many hundreds of big game hunters armed and backed-up with heavy rifles, have met unfortunate and unpleasant ends at the teeth, claws, hooves, horns, heads and knees of their game. I'd still be happy to assist and back-up Clint with any such experiment / adventure. I apologise if my "She'll be right!" Aussie demeanour came on a bit too strong and foolishly. Good hunting and best wishes to all!
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Offline Rick McGowan

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2009, 10:49:00 AM »
knife river, lack of penetration. Jay Massey was about a big a fan of primitive archery as there was. He made his own selfbows, arrows, knapped heads, gathered sinew etc.. I still have some of that sinew here. Anyway his goal was to kill a bull moose with his 80# selfbow and knapped head. He waited for years for the PERFECT opportunity on a close, standing broadside bull and when he shot, he said the arrow nearly hit him as it BOUNCED off the bull. Now a bull moose has very thick hide, but its not half as thick as a bull water buffalo or as tough.
Clint I do have some ribs here, though they have been drying for about 12 years so they probably shrunk some. They are about 6cm wide at the widest and about 17mm thick, they do taper towards the back edge, which they need to so that the buff can turn, there is no space between the ribs, so when they turn the ribs slide over the one behind it, like fishscales. I had one really good bowhunter shooting a 95# wheely bow, with 900 grain arrows and Zwickey Eskimo heads, he was an excellent shot also. I warned him to only take broadside shots, but when he got the opportunity, the buff was slightly angled away. He said he thought it WAS broadside and I don't doubt him, people tend to get a bit excited when they are close to buffalo. Anyway the shot was perfect, but even with that outfit, he only got less than half the arrow length of penetration, which just barely put the head into the heart and the bull dropped in well under a minute. If he had gotten two inches less penetration, the bull would have run off. I did an autopsy and found that the two blade head had slid right between two ribs vertically, so the only damage to the ribs was a tiny matching groove on the mating sides where the ferrule had pushed through. If that head hadn't been prefectly vertical and hit right where the two ribs came together, it would have played out totally different.
Somewhere I have photos of replaceable blade heads stuck in ribs with only the tips making it through, I think most outfitters in buffalo country have some of those ribs laying around.
Lots of hunters go to Africa and see the PH with the big rifle and never have another thought than the rifle is there to keep them safe, actually thats probably the lowest priority. The rules in Africa are mainly to protect innocent by standers and wounded dangerous game is likely to whack the next person they see. My experience is that a water buffalo that has been wounded by a bowhunter and encounters another human being a week or two later, is 50% likely to try and kill that person. Think what would happen if a family of tourists camped along the road got smashed and when they killed the buff they found he had an arrowhead festering in him. It could be the end of bowhunting for buff in OZ and in fact TWICE I have heard the words, "no more bowhunters" from station managers, because of people doing things they shouldn't have done. I can tell you its a pretty sick feeling when you work ten years to build up good will towards bowhunters and someone destroys it in a week.

Offline ozy clint

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2009, 11:52:00 AM »
like i said even modern gear can fail. don't think that the wounded buff killing tourists scenario couldn't happen with modern gear. i wouldn't stereotype stone broadheads before we even know how they perform.
sounds like buffulo hunting even with high tech gear is to 'iffy' to to call it ethical.
there has been more buffulo wounded with steel than with stone.

no where have i made the claim that it can be done.if they don't perform in testing i'd be the 1st to say don't do it. everyone thinks it can't be done but no one knows if it can.
Thick fog slowly lifts
Jagged peaks and hairy beast
Food for soul and body.

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Offline knife river

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2009, 12:48:00 PM »
Thanks for the info, Rick.  I sure wish Jay was still around so we could pick his brain about it and see the head/hafting he used.  Just as there's a wide range of effectiveness in steel broadheads, there's a huge range in stone points.  Some of the points being made and used today are a bit less than ideal and are better suited for use as paperweights (I'm trying hard to be diplomatic).  

Clint, if I wasn't clear enough in my post on page 3, I'd be glad to make some points for you to experiment with.  The key word there is EXPERIMENT on freshly killed buff.  If we're both not completely confident in stone points' effectiveness on water buffalo, we need to pull the plug.

Along similar lines, the hafting job needs to be done right, too.  In my eyes, it's every bit as important as the point itself.  

Rick, I hear and understand you perfectly.  I don't want to participate in something foolhardy that might hurt innocent folks or jeopardize the future of bowhunting in OZ.  However, I am very curious to see how properly made stone points perform in these experiments.  After we get a feel for how stone does on freshly-killed water buffalo we can take another look at whether or not to press on.  First though, I see no harm in the experiment.
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Offline Rick McGowan

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2009, 03:18:00 PM »
Guys, I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time, I just want to give a counterpoint to those that say, "just go ahead and try it and let us know how it worked out". In my experience, they wouldn't say that if they had any experience. A couple years ago Ted Nugent stuck some arrows into a rhino and it was a fiasco. The next DAY it was front page news in Jo'berg. Now there is no dangerous game bowhunting in S.A.. One thing may not have been directly responsible for the other, but it didn't help.
I did have one of Jay's heads, but I mounted it on the box I made for the Jay Massey tribute knife I donated to PBS a few years ago. It was a decent looking head, I don't know if it was the same as the one he used on the moose or not, but Jay was very serious about that stuff, so I am sure he had things as good as he thought he could get them.
Clint, of course, you can have problems with modern gear as well. I figure out when I shot the first buff and the arrow bounced off the ribs that penetration may not be the only thing, but if you don't have enough of it nothing else is going to matter. That first shot failed, because I listened to some bad advice, ultimately, it was MY fault, because I listened to it. At the time, there was very very little info on bowhunting buffalo and virtually none on water buffalo. The advice I got was "don't worry, they are not built like a cape buffalo, you will shoot right throught them with that outfit". It turns out the booking agent who gave me that advice, like he actually knew, didn't KNOW ANYTHING. So because I thought they were soft and I would "shoot right through them", I used a wide head to cut  as much as possible and I shot right behind the shoulder like you normally would and the arrow from the 79# bow was perfect, except that it only penetrated to the ribs and fell back out and the bull was back to grazing a few minutes later. The following year, when I was a bit better educated, I brought an 85# bow and Grizzly heads and shot the arrow all the way through.
My point we all need to consider what we do before we do it and think about at what point the risk is no longer acceptable. I have no doubt with my buff gear, I could put down any buff in seconds and so could anyone else, but unfortunately, some of the guys I guided, chose to ignore my advice which was based on experience and go with their own opinions. I know there have been stories the last couple years about guys killing buffalo with bows in the mid 60# range. Unfortunately(and I have personal knowledge)a guy posing with a buff and a 65# bow dosn't really tell the whole story.

Offline chrisg

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2009, 04:30:00 PM »
Rick, Don, I have been to that bad movie, I was hit by a pissed off cape buff dagha bull when guiding a walking safari. He had a broken, septic horn tip and was partially blind. He had trashed a vehicle and chased a couple of game scouts up a tree in the weeks prior to our meeting so he was good and ready for me, but I never got a shot off - he ran between me and my clients. I was carrying a .458 BRNO with 490gr monolithics. I escaped by playing dead immediately he hit me, lots more damage bones ribs etc, after a minute's wrestling, I kept dead quiet, it worked and I am alive and whole today.
Clint, Ben, LOTS of stuff is possible in theory. Most of the PHs and reserve staff visited me in hospital. Want to know what they all said? "You are so lucky, we should have collected you with a spade and bucket" The guy who drove me out to meet the ambulance had done just that a mere three months earlier. I had a black man from the reserve village come in to my ward as I lay drugged up and with tubes in every orifice and two drips and shout at me in Shangaan. In his yelling he made it clear that I was more than just 'lucky' and that I was to be very grateful and respectful for the gift of the rest of my miserable life. No sympathy at all.To this day I don't know how I survived.

So guys, let me tell you that there are no such things as 'experiments'. It is not fair on the animal and you or someone else might just get killed. And please re-read what Rick has said about the numbers of shots that it took to put an angry animal down. Forget about one shot kills, THAT IS FOR THE MOVIES, you'd be lucky to get one. A cape buff has a brain the size of a grapefruit,most is covered by hard bone and the 'boss', waterbuff is much the same I guess. That is why you read about one shot kills, the ones that fail appear in the deaths column.I do not normally like to talk about this experience but this thread makes me mad. Sorry.I will pull this post tomorrow.
chrisg

Offline Torben Jensen

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Re: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2009, 04:57:00 PM »
Rick, I guess you are not referring to me since I have never posted a picture of my bow killed buff in sept. 2007? I hunted with your old mate Andrew Mackay at his place and killed an old big bull which I have told about earlier here on Tradgang.
It was a one shot kill almost to the flecth with my 65#29" DAS bow with Samick Extreme limbs. The arrows was optimiced as Ashby suggest and also with very high FOC. There was no "funny stuff" going on (rifles or such)- it just died in a matter of seconds. Feel free to ask Andrew if you want or doubt anything I have said.
I don't understand why most people keep talking drawweight alone when discussing "killing power". That doesn't tell much. A persons drawlenght and the bows performance - and not to forget optimicing the arrow means much more.
These Samick Extreme limbs was shooting heavy arrows much more efficiently than all the other bows I have tested untill now - and believe my there has been a lot on my shooting machine! Compared to a Black Widow recurve (and I love Widows!) I got app. the same speed with 8-10 pounds less drawweight. And on top of that I draw an honest 29 inches. If I only drew say 27 inches (and still 65#) I would get app. 10 fps less which again is equivalent to 8-10 pounds of drawweight. So to me talking drawweight alone doesn't add up.
By the way I can attest that a .416 Rigby isn't a 100% solution when the **** hits the fan with waterbuffalo. There was an American rifle hunter at Andrews place while I was there and he really got into trouble. He and the guide (not Andrew) emptied both their .416 Rigbys into it while it came at full tilt and they still had to run in cover behind the car for reloading. Then the guide dispatched it with a head shot from very close - actually just in front of them. If that had been me with my bow and no car near ..............
The americans wife was in the car while the angry buff tried to turn it over so she didn't want to go hunting for more buffalo - and actually the husband didn't either.

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