Author Topic: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results (Read 13672 times)

knife river · « **Reply #80 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:40:00 PM »

Geez, Rick, are you sure that even a 458 is enough??? It sounds like the only way to kill them is to call in an airstrike... That's a lot of armor wrapped around a nasty personality.

michaelschwister · « **Reply #81 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:59:00 PM »

I think I need to see a carcass.

ozy clint · « **Reply #82 on:** March 16, 2009, 08:25:00 PM »

rick- what is your oppinion of the BEST spot to place an arrow. i can understand broadside is the best because you'll be hitting the ribs at 90 degrees reducing the chance of it glancing like it would quatering away. from your last post i can gather that the best place is say level with the point of the shoulder in elevation and between the point of the shoulder and the crease. right? would that be where the ribs are thinnest?

Don Thomas · « **Reply #83 on:** March 16, 2009, 11:36:00 PM »

Interesting discussion. I haven't heard anyone really refute my original position. With all due respect to the talented knappers out there: I have absolutely no doubt that it CAN be done. That still doesn't mean it should be. BTW, until you have carried the backup rifle for a bowhunter stalking truly dangerous game(hogs, black bears and the like don't count), you really don't have a feel for what it's all about. The ultimate responsibility belongs with the backup gun, not the bowhunter! I will frankly decline that responsibility unless I have total confidence in both the hunter and his equipment. As for shot placement on buffalo: broadside to no more than 10 degrees quartering away, 40% up from the bottom of the chest, and right in the shoulder crease. Every buff I've seen hit there was a one shot kill. With one lucky exception, every one I've seen hit anywhere else was a big, scary disaster. Cheers, Don

chrisg · « **Reply #84 on:** March 17, 2009, 02:04:00 AM »

Hi Rick, I agree 100%. Cape buff are built the same.
I am with you and Don. It would take a perfect fluke shot,and is too low a percentage chance.Thanks.
chrisg

Rick McGowan · « **Reply #85 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:55:00 AM »

Ozy, what I tell my hunters and I tell them this way to make it as simple as possible, because when they get 18 yards from live buffalo, they are going to remember very very little. On a standing broadside buffalo, take a line straight up the center of the front leg and 1/3rd of the way up the body from the bottom of the chest. This will put the arrow in the center of a triangle, between the upper leg bone, the scapula(shoulder bone) and the thicker rib bones. It also puts the arrow at the top of the heart and into the lungs, really the ideal spot. The rib bones that lie beneath the shoulder muscle are less than half the thickness of those from the shoulder aft and they aren't so tight together. It is possible to shoot and arrow through the thickest part of the thickest ribs, I have done it, but it was with an 85# recurve and 970 grain arrows and a 160 Grizzly. And to give you and idea how big water buffalo are, that arrow is 33" long and on the broadside bull the arrow went in its full length until only the nock was visble and it didn't come out the other side!

ozy clint · « **Reply #86 on:** March 17, 2009, 11:18:00 AM »

thanks rick, i'd rather go through more meat and thinner ribs

Rick McGowan · « **Reply #87 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:58:00 PM »

clint,ya, arrows go through soft tissue great, bones not so well. There is actually quite a big difference in the skin and muscle between a mature herd bull and bulls that are not with a herd. I assume that the herd bulls are pumped up with testosterone all the time and their skin and neck and shoulder muscles are much thicker and heavier.

ozy clint · « **Reply #88 on:** March 18, 2009, 12:31:00 PM »

a loner would do me just fine.

LONGBOWKID · « **Reply #89 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:16:00 PM »

Id go for 80# minimum, Osage Orange shafts, a coral point, possibly Madagasper Jasper. Definetely not an easily knappable rock like obsidian, glass, dacite, etc. The easier it knaps, the easier it will break. IMO

Good luck with it!

Avoid becoming buffalo "shoe" goo!

michaelschwister · « **Reply #90 on:** March 19, 2009, 07:10:00 PM »

I know Gene Wensel has a pre-historic bison vertibrae with a stone point embedded in the bone as far as any steel 2 blade, that is the only example of stone heads penetrating bone that I have personally seen (May have been an atl-atl dart head). I do know chert is some damn hard stuff, and stone penetrates easier than steel in flesh (I believe Saxton Pope and Fred Bear performed this type of testing.) My good friend and master knapper Dr Dwight Bundy has taken whitetails with stone and found penetration to be at least as good if not better than steel 2 blade heads. I also know that stone point will break and continue to cut/penetrate whereas a steel point that bends stops on the spot (Had a 150 class whitetail buck rib roll the tip on a WW this past fall and limit the 600 grain shaft to 2" penetration). I would bet if I had a stone tip that buck would be in the freezer, not still chasing does.

I do agree that testing should begin under controlled conditions with a fresh killed carcass. I also agree, that if/when I hunt large bovine I will go with a modified grizzly and heavy shaft. However, I also know Bob Munger killed 2 cape buff on 1 trip with a 50# kodiak and a bear razorhead (Luck WAS involved). As such, it is certainly posible to kill these wild bovine with less than freight train stopping momentum. FWIW, many researchers believe the Columbia mammoth (Much larger than African Elephants) was wiped out by humans, armed only with stone tipped sticks (Must have been Ed Ashbys ancestors).

ozy clint · « **Reply #91 on:** March 20, 2009, 08:32:00 PM »

young bison skull. a spear point i imagine.
no relavance other than it penetrated some bone in this situation. the tang would have been broken by the spear waving around in the wind, i would think.

NorthernCaliforniaHunter · « **Reply #92 on:** March 22, 2009, 01:48:00 PM »

Cool photo Clinton.
Where'd this come from?

otis.drum · « **Reply #93 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:52:00 PM »

just the weight of the spear would probably be enough to break it. or if the beast went down and rolled. any leaverage on the spear would snap it like that i would think.

Zenzele · « **Reply #94 on:** April 17, 2009, 05:54:00 PM »

This is a great thread...

One thing to remember - there are no second chances when that wounded beast comes charging down on you! :eek: Stone was used befor steel, and with the proper testing we can re-learn the knowledge of our ancestors that has been lost in time...

ozy clint · « **Reply #95 on:** April 17, 2009, 09:57:00 PM »

yeah i can't wait to get into buffulo country and do some learning.

ozy clint · « **Reply #96 on:** September 21, 2009, 04:34:00 AM »

i'm in buff country now!!
i'll be making up some primitive arrows shortly ready for some testing. i have 3 stone points that "knife river" kindly gave me.

they are going to be hafted to some surewoods...thanks bob. they will be fletched with turkey feathers given to me by "northerncaliforniahunter" thanks juan. self nocks and points will be hafted with pine pitch and wallaby tail sinew.
i'll get some pics on here when i get them done.
hopefully i'll get are chance to get some testing done soon and share the results.....good or bad.

TheFatboy · « **Reply #97 on:** September 22, 2009, 04:20:00 PM »

NorthernCaliforniaHunter · « **Reply #98 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:24:00 PM »

Can't wait to see those arrows Clint!

Jesse Peltan · « **Reply #99 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:38:00 PM »

What about a neck shot?

News:

Author Topic: water buffulo with a selfbow and stone points, now with testing results (Read 13672 times)

Users currently browsing this topic: