Absolute MINIMUM for Cape Buff.

[tradtusker]

thats a neat pic David thanks for sharing    

[zipper bowss]

That picture says it all,without saying a word!
Bill

[Jesse Peltan]

Looking at that buffalo I can see its not even comparable to an American buffalo. I can see though how a single bevel would provide a huge advantage.

[tradtusker]

not the best pic but..

American Bison for comparison

 

[amar911]

Yes, you are going to need to cut through a rib to get inside the chest of a cape buffalo. So, like others suggest, you need the combination that will provide the best penetration in a rig that is at least at the minimum described above and that you can still shoot accurately. That's why I chose the most bow I could draw and shoot well with a 915 grain EFOC arrow and the Ashby single bevel broadhead. I just wish I could tell you I have killed a cape buffalo with that combination, but I am still looking for a shot at one. Someday!

Allan

[kibok&ko]

Originally posted by tradtusker:
thats a neat pic David thanks for sharing      

thanks you, this pic was took by a friend in the natural history museum of Paris

it's a scary picture for bowhunters !!!

by the way i'm looking for the same from an Australian water buffalo, do you think the "armor" is scary as well ??

[calgarychef]

Wow that's a great picture!!  And it tells a story too....one that could end very poorly if things go wrong.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Michael, to your original question. I did some testing in 2008 with a 40#@27" Bear Formula Silver recurve. The testing was done on young adult bulls. That size animal was selected because they have a rib thickness approximately the same as an absolutely enormous bull elk would have; thus, some degree of correlation in bone structure, albeit behind much thicker, tougher skin. The back injury/surgery has delayed me getting the Updates on the 2008 testing written up, but I'll pass this along.

Yes, with the right arrow setup it is possible to get a killing shot on a buffalo. I found some arrow setups that would give reliable double lung hits on the young adult buffalo bull, and with many giving a high percentage of thorax-traversing hits. That said, I didn't find an arrow setup that would give 100% thorax-traversing shots on that same size class buffalo.

A trophy class bull is a lot bigger animal than a young adult bull, with more massive bones. I'm fairly certain that it would be POSSIBLE to kill a trophy class bull with a 43# traditional bow (especially one of high efficiency, and at a longish draw length), but at what level of reliability I can't say (that would depend on the arrow force the individual bow was able to generate with a suitable arrow). At any rate, and regardless of the arrow setup, using that light a draw weight on a trophy class buffalo bull is not something that I would recommend or advise you to attempt ... unless you were in a true survival situation. Its use cannot be justified in a sport hunting situation.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Big Ed]

Well said Doc,trust those who have experience.

[amar911]

Dr. Ed,

What would you say is the broadhead/arrow that would have the maximum efficiency out of the bow that would be a reasonable mimimum for large, old, trophy class cape buffalo bulls? I know others (including me) have speculated about that but without the kind of knowledge and experience you have in this area. I am asking for specific types, weights, etc., of this setup. I do understand that everything must be properly tuned for near perfect arrow flight and that the angle and placement of the arrow must be optimized with a shot at fairly close range. Thanks for your help on this.

Allan

[kibok&ko]

Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
Michael, to your original question. I did some testing in 2008 with a 40#@27" Bear Formula Silver recurve. The testing was done on young adult bulls. That size animal was selected because they have a rib thickness approximately the same as an absolutely enormous bull elk would have; thus, some degree of correlation in bone structure, albeit behind much thicker, tougher skin. The back injury/surgery has delayed me getting the Updates on the 2008 testing written up, but I'll pass this along.

Yes, with the right arrow setup it is possible to get a killing shot on a buffalo. I found some arrow setups that would give reliable double lung hits on the young adult buffalo bull, and with many giving a high percentage of thorax-traversing hits. That said, I didn't find an arrow setup that would give 100% thorax-traversing shots on that same size class buffalo.

A trophy class bull is a lot bigger animal than a young adult bull, with more massive bones. I'm fairly certain that it would be POSSIBLE to kill a trophy class bull with a 43# traditional bow (especially one of high efficiency, and at a longish draw length), but at what level of reliability I can't say (that would depend on the arrow force the individual bow was able to generate with a suitable arrow). At any rate, and regardless of the arrow setup, using that light a draw weight on a trophy class buffalo bull is not something that I would recommend or advise you to attempt ... unless you were in a true survival situation. Its use cannot be justified in a sport hunting situation.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

Hello Doc, good to read you again  

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Allan, realaze that here I'm having to extrapolate from the results shown with the 40# bow. The testing was directed at the heavy bone threshold, and whether or not the degree of arrow FOC had any effect. The test included 4 sets of arrows, each set having 12 arrows. I'm working from memory here, and can't, off the top of my head, recall precisely all the specifications of each arrow set. All 48 arrows were of identical external profile. Set 1 had Ultra EFOC (31.8%) at 620 grains; Set 2 was 623 grains at about 11% FOC; Set 3 was around 690 grians at around 25% FOC; and Set 4 was at around 725 grains at about 26% FOC. (When I can do the Updates, I'll have the exact arrow specs there.) For what it is worth, velocity with these test arrows ranged from 120 to 129 fps.

Bottom line test results: the degree of FOC showed no effect on the heavy bone threshold, with 50% (6 of the 12 shots) of both Sets 1 and 2 managing to breach the ribs. Between Set 1 and Set 2, Set 1's Ultra EFOC arrows showed an enormous penetration increase for each of the six hits THAT DID MANAGE TO BREACH THE BONE, with all of the six bone-breaching shots managing AT LEAST a solid double-lung hit, and with the majority fully traversing the thorax. Of Set 2's six bone-breaching hits, none managed more than a shallow one lung hit. Sets three and four, both of which are above the heavy bone threshold, showed a 100% rate of breaching the bone.

I won't get into more specifics on the results yet, and I still have to do comparisons between the outcomes shown by these arrows and those shown by comparable shots with normal and EFOC arrows at higher force levels, but I'll say that ...

IF I were designing a maximum performance arrow for that same 40# bow, at this very moment, I would be looking at: (1) changing the 190 Grizzly used in the 40# bow testing for the Modified Grizzly (for the much higher MA the Modified Grizzly offers); (2) trying to reach an FOC of 35% OR MORE (you read that correctly, thirty-five percent, or more); at (3) a mass weight of at least 700 grains or so.

It doesn't appear that I'll be able to do any testing in 2009, but I'm hoping to be able to do some in 2010, with some Ultra EFOC arrows up in that 35% range.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[amar911]

Dr. Ed,

I'm sorry, but I obviously didn't ask my question very well. I was wanting you to describe what you thought was the practical minimum specs for a bow for a large trophy cape buffalo and then the arrow that would be needed to make that bow work. For example, you might tell me that the bow should be a minimum of 65 pounds at a 28 inch draw with an efficient reflex/deflex longbow or recurve shooting a 900 grain arrow with a 25% EFOC or greater and utilizing an Ashby single bevel or similar broadhead. Of course, you might give more or less detail on any of the factors that would go into the bow/arrow/broadhead combination that you believe would be the practical minimum. By "practical minimum" I mean the combination that you think would produce a quick killing wound virtually every time with a well placed shot. In other words, what would be the combination utilizing the lowest poundage bow that you would take out hunting a big cape buffalo? I doubt any of us think you would use a 40 pound bow, but most of us cannot draw and shoot an 80 pound bow either.

Thanks,
Allan

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Allan, sorry I misunderstood what you were asking.

The arrow part is pretty easy. The bow part is a lot harder.

A lot of the bow's 'minimum' would depend on the bow's efficiency. With heavy arrows, the ACS-CX at 64#@27" delivers exactly (and I mean that literally) the same fps across the chronograph as the straight-end 82#@27" longbow I've done most of the Asian buffalo testing and shooting with. With the 'right arrow setup' both bows have also reliably delivered exit wounds on trophy class bulls.

With the right arrow setup I can also get absolute certain double-lung hits on trophy class bulls, with a high percentage of thorax traversing hits, from my 70#@27" longbow; and I can exceed that bow's performance (with the same mass arrows) from a 54#@27" ACS-CX. So, the bow's draw weight won't really tell you much. Look at the verious arrow setups shown in the updates. Note their performance and the momentum they were tested at. Regardless of its measured draw weight, with YOU shooting YOUR BOW bow, if it delivers that level of momentum to a like arrow, then the outcomes will be the same.

The arrow setup that I currently use for the 82# and 64# bows (and this may change, depending on the outcomes with the Ultra EFOC testing) is the 790 grain Internally Footed EFOC ones described in the 2007 Updates, and has been used with both the Modified Grizzly and the Ashby BH. It has, to date, delivered 100% exit wounds on all buffalo, including a couple of the largest bodied bulls I've ever arrowed.

With a normal FOC arrow, using either the Grizzly, Modified Grizzly or a comparable BH, I need 840 to 900 grains on either of those bows to feel confident of a thorax-traversing hit on a trophy class bull, from all reasonable shooting angles. The weight difference results from other factors, such as whether the shaft is parallel or tapered, and such things as the ferrule to shaft-diameter ratio. Note that the lighter-weight EFOC arrows described above consistently averages more penetration than these higher mass, normal to high FOC arrow.

If you're looking for a near 'off the shelf' arrow setup, the best easy setup I've found is the Grizzly Stik Safari with an extra 100 grains in brass add-on weights back of the brass insert, and using either the 190 Grizzly or Modified Grizzly on a 125 grian steel adaptor, or with the Ashby BH. This is a higher mass arrow, well over 900 grains (at the length I use them). From either the 64# ACS-CX or the 82# straight-end longbow they also give reliable thorax-traversing penetration with a very high frequency of exit wounds.

The Safari shaft takes me only a tiny bit of tinkering with shaft-length to get them bare shafting perfectly (less effort than working up a 'start from scratch' setup). However, that might be different for your individual bow. None of my bows are very near center shot. Even on the ACS-CX I add a very thick arrow plate to make the bow less center shot. This reduced the dynamic arrow spine required to tune perfectly, allowing me to add more tip weight, for a higher amount of FOC.

Regardless of how you set your buffalo arrow up, remember those three 'must have' feature: (1) ABSOLUTE structural integrity of the arrow, tip to nock; (2) ABSOLUTE perfect arrow flight and (3) a TRULY SHARP broadhead that STAYS SHARP throughout its entire penetration (still truly sharp AFTER the shot).

Hope that answers your question better.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[amar911]

Dr. Ed,

That does answer my question, and does so very well indeed! What you describe sounds very similar to the combination I took to Zimbabwe a month ago when I failed in my attempt to get within shooting range of a cape buffalo. I will definitely try again. I had a Super Shrew Samurai takedown longbow, 60" 68#@29 1/2", and was shooting Arrow Dynamics Hammerheads with 170 grains of brass inserts and screw in weights with the ABS Ashby broadheads for a total weight of 915 grains. The arrows flew great and hit targets with great force. I believed this setup would be adequate for the task if I had a chance to send an arrow in the direction of a cape buffalo, but that unfortunately was not in the cards. Presumably you would agree that such a setup would have done the job.

Thanks for you marvelous insights.

Allan

[robertson]

Hello Dr. Ed

I was wondering ....

HOW YOU MANEGE TO GET MORE THAN 31% EFOC ?????

Even with a 300 grains nail + 100 grains insert + 300 grains broadhead i don t reach so much .

If i am not mistaking ...

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Hello Pascal,

The biggest 'secret' to obtaining Ultra EFOC is to use the lighest weight shaft you can. That reduces the weight back of the center of gravity. The second 'secret' is to not have your bow too close to center shot. That allows you to use a weaker static spine arrow (lighter shaft weight again) and still have enough dynamic arrow spine to tune perfect flight with high point weights.

I built up a new longbow (about 80# at by 27" draw, but haven't scaled it yet) just to use in the next round of Ultra EFOC arrow testing. It started out with no arrow shelf, just a peg rest. I started toying with the arrow setup, using GT Ultralite 3555 shafts. With 575 grains up front, the full length 3555 shaft was still too stiff. (And, before anyone asks, I did check to verify that I wasn't getting a false strong shaft, from a grossly weak shaft slapping the bow.) That's over 35% FOC on the full length shaft, and will be more once I can shorten the shaft down (again, reducing weight to the arrow's rear).

Moving your arrow away from center shot offers a lot of tuning possibilities! Before I started this newest round of medical stuff, I had just started gradually cutting in a small arrow shelf and started the tuning process with that arrow point-weight/shaft setup, but that's now on hold until I get through with these medical test, and whatever follows.

Are you using the AMO Standard Method in measuring your FOC? That's the measurement method I use on FOC. The method you use won't change the arrow, but will change the answer you get. To compare one arrow to another you need to be sure both are measured by the same system.

Hope that helps,

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[robertson]

Ok Ed

I went to see on the forum and using the AMO method :
According what you said with my combo

i got 29.7 % EFOC

Thank you again for all the job you have done until now

I had not the chance to arrowed a buff yet in Central africa
I didn t dare at 22 yards , to far for me and my
combo .

Maybe next year ....

Hope you are doing better

Pascal

[RaybowTx]

I'll never get the opportunity to go on a hunt like that. And don't know if I'd have the boots to carry that heavy load. But kinetic energy is energy and doesn't care what the draw length, poundage, arrow weight etc. is.

Mchunt.  Your crazy at best.  (please sense the humor) But I won't let my daughter hunt deer until she is able to resposibly shoot the kind of weight your talking about. ....Ray......

[artifaker1]

Great thread; but I would like to ad that the American bison is a serious hunt as well. I have a friend who guides on wild bison and they have a lot of trouble getting those down sometimes, and that is with guns. I think they insist on backing up bowhunters. They are lightning fast and dangerous.