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Author Topic: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow  (Read 11282 times)

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« on: September 03, 2010, 08:51:00 AM »
The newest Update is posted. It contains information on how the penetration of an Ultra-EFOC arrow that is barely above the heavy bone threshold in mass compares to multiple other arrow groupings, including the super-heavy, classic buffalo arrows. Interesting results that might require some re-thinking of heavy game arrow setups.

Ed

Online ozy clint

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 07:52:00 PM »
thanks ed! can you post a link here so we can go straight to it?

now i'm off for some saturday morning reading. ha
Thick fog slowly lifts
Jagged peaks and hairy beast
Food for soul and body.

Border black douglas recurve 70# and 58# HEX6 BB2 limbs

Online ozy clint

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 08:13:00 PM »
also would you mind going into more detail on how you made and tuned a 31.4% UFOC arrow?  :confused:
Thick fog slowly lifts
Jagged peaks and hairy beast
Food for soul and body.

Border black douglas recurve 70# and 58# HEX6 BB2 limbs

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 09:05:00 AM »
Clint, The arrow setup is in the Current Part 4 Update. Here's the link to it and to the Part 5 Update.

 http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update4.pdf

 http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2008update5.pdf

Ed

Online ozy clint

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 08:35:00 PM »
gee, thanks ed.

didn't know you had already put that info up.

cheers.  :notworthy:
Thick fog slowly lifts
Jagged peaks and hairy beast
Food for soul and body.

Border black douglas recurve 70# and 58# HEX6 BB2 limbs

Offline chrisg

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 05:17:00 AM »
Well done again Doctor Ed. Nothing beats a careful and complete study. You should be in line for another degree or two! The debates that float about are interesting but solid data and caution cannot be beat. Good on you.
chrisg

Offline chopx2

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2010, 04:19:00 PM »
Thank you again for such selfless dedication to our sport and traditions. Your commitment in the face of such relentless commercialization of speed to merchandize product is amazing, and I might add starting to make even the compound guys take note. I've seen you studies mentioned in more than one "wheelie" publicaiton this year.

I find it astonishing when people argue against your findings with no facts and no understanding of the underlying science.
TGMM-Family of the Bow

The quest to improve is so focused on a few design aspects & compensating for hunter ineptness as to actually have reduced a bow & arrow’s effectiveness. Nothing better demonstrates this than mech. BHs & speed fixated designs

Offline Spotted Quoll

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 01:03:00 AM »
As always, a pleasure and a privilege to read your reports.

Thank you Dr Ed.

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 08:51:00 AM »
two holes are always better than one.

Great stuff, Ed.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline divecon10

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 08:03:00 PM »
Excuse if these Q’s seem a little dull. Also thanks for clarifying the centre shot so simply.
Does this turbulator riffle the air over and down to the base of the feathers, is that what the A&A system is about?
Surely 4 feathers weigh very little but I imagine that’s integral to EFOC and grabbing the air as in more traditional FOC is not part of the equation as penetration with less force is the goal!?
If the shots were shorter, say half the distance would u be utilizing higher feathers or are these shafts sufficiently well tuned an rely on the EFOC pulling them to point. If longer would rainbow shot be required with EFOC?
R u indicating more speed in trajectory with higher EFOC?
Is it correct the tests would me even more forgiving with significant better result on live animal? As dead weight with lungs deflated there is no stretching of the bone and skin outward?
Thanks for enlightening Doc
divecon

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 10:22:00 AM »
Divecon, the Turbulator disrupts the air flow, which increases the pressure exerted by the air on the fletching. This increases the stabilizing effect of the fletching, which allows you to use a smaller amount of fletching to attain the same degree of stabilization in flight, but that is not the only purpose of the A&A fletching.

Using smaller fletching offers many benefits, and there's a pretty comprehensive thread about the A&A fletching. Here's the link.  http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=057257#000000

On an arrow that is already well tuned (correctly bare shaft tuned), using the minimum fletching required to overcome the wind shear created by the broadhead gives a higher FOC. As one approaches the level of Ultra-EFOC reducing shaft weight at the arrow's rear becomes a major factor in the degree of FOC change you and attain.

Ultra-EFOC is (Study defined) as being 30% and above. The reason being, it's really difficult to reach 30% and above FOC without making a concentrated effort to attain FOC.

Just putting high tip weight on most light weight shafts will get you into the EFOC range, but the higher the FOC gets the more increase in tip weight it takes to make the same degree of FOC increase. As Ultra-EFOC is approached it is more 'productive' to be reducing weight at the shaft's rear than adding additional tip weight. That's because the rear leaver arm (the distance from the nock to the balance point) gets longer as the FOC increases, and the forward lever arm, from the arrow's front to the balance point) gets shorter. The longer the leaver arm the more force a given amount of weight will exert.

As for close shots, a well tuned Ultra-EFOC bare shaft will recover from paradox incredable rapidly; it will certainly be showing straight impact into the target within 3 yards, and usually at even closer ranges. By adding a broadhead and then the minimum fletching required to overcome the broadhead's wind shear effect equally rapid recovery from paradon is retained. That's one of the things I most like about EFOC and Ultra-EFOC arrows; they show faster paradox recovery than normal or high FOC arrows, giving greater penetration on close range shots.

As for longer range shots, because EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrows recover from paradox much more rapidly than normal/high FOC arrows, and the smaller fletching required to stabalize the broadhead in flight has less surface area, they have less drag. The rapid paradox recovery means less of the bow-derived energy of the arrow is wasted by paradox. As the arrow proceeds downrange, the smaller fletching not only has less drag it drains less energy when any flight correction is required. Because the EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrow has a longer 'rear leaver' (or rear stearing arm, if you prefer) the fletching requires less 'applied force' to overcome any flight instability required by such things as the broadhead's wind shear and changes in air flow/pressure caused by changes in wind direction. All this retained arrow energy is now used to produce 'productive work'; higher retained arrow velocity and arrow force.

If you take 2 broadhead-tipped arrows that are identical in all external dimensions (except for the fletching, as the lower FOC arrow will require more fletching to overcome the broadhead's wind shear), and of equal mass (weight) and equally well tuned but having a large difference in FOC and shoot them at longer ranges you will see a very noticable difference in trajectory. The arrow having very high FOC will shoot noticable flatter. This is because of the additional 'useful energy' the arrow has attained from the bow and retained as it traveled downrange. Make up 2 such arrows yourself; one at normal FOC and one at EFOC and try that simple test at 40 meters or so. The difference in trajectory is very noticable.

In the Study's testing, all test shots are conducted within 30 minutes of the animal expiring. That's because early testing showed a difference between the results from shots taken on very fresh tissues and those taken after the animal had been dead for a longer period of time. Starting in 1982 I began to keep a seperate detailed database of each big game, bow killed animal. This information is used as a cross reference between the results observed on the test shots and the outcomes observed on real hunting shots. While the bow killed database has only 629 animals, whereas the test shot database(s) contains thousands, there is excellent correlation between the shot outcomes between the test shots and the actual bow kills. I wish I had started that bow killed database 25 years sooner, with my first deer. It would be very interesting to have the performance of those early arrow setups to also compare against.

Hope that helps a bit,

Ed

Offline chopx2

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 12:45:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
 While the bow killed database has only 629 animals, whereas the test shot database(s) contains thousands
Ed
Doc...wow I can't even imagine the dilligence, hard work and committment this has taken. I am amazed and grateful.

  :notworthy:
TGMM-Family of the Bow

The quest to improve is so focused on a few design aspects & compensating for hunter ineptness as to actually have reduced a bow & arrow’s effectiveness. Nothing better demonstrates this than mech. BHs & speed fixated designs

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2010, 03:21:00 PM »
Chop, Knowing how closely some folks seem to pour over everything I write looking for even the tiniest discrepancies   :banghead:  I went back and checked, and my database of bow-killed animals, excluding small game, has only 627 animals in it, not 629. Now that the record has been set straight I feel much, much better.   :)

Ed

Offline rastaman

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2010, 04:10:00 PM »
i'm glad you cleared that up for us Dr. Ashby!  :)   Good stuff!
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Offline chopx2

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2010, 04:12:00 PM »
That's it, now I have to question everything I've read!!!!!  :p  

Thanks again for everything you contribute to our understanding of terminal arrow performance. It has been eye opening and in many ways an epiphany.
TGMM-Family of the Bow

The quest to improve is so focused on a few design aspects & compensating for hunter ineptness as to actually have reduced a bow & arrow’s effectiveness. Nothing better demonstrates this than mech. BHs & speed fixated designs

Offline divecon10

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 06:55:00 PM »
Certainly helped thanks! Doc, In those early days, 82, were u considering EFOC or has this been a recent and experimental development. And is there reference to u’r 115# or other heavy bows and varying broadhead setups? Also info on u’r stat sheets
Cheers
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divecon

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 09:07:00 AM »
Divecon.....click below and you can see where the question originated....right here on Trad Gang....and note the date of the thread....Pretty cool huh?

   EFOC precursor
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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2010, 11:46:00 AM »
Devicon, Terry answered the FOC question! As you can see on that thread I was sceptical of the greatly improved penetration some folks were reporting with higher levels of FOC (as I am of most things based on casual observations, until I can test them and record the results ACROSS A LARGE NUMBER OF 'OUTCOMES'). Though I'd given FOC a bit of serious consideration because of what folks like Bob Morrison were reporting I had a lot of other arrow design factors I was already busily testing and FOC was sort of sitting on the back burner. It was Terry's thread that prompted me to move that testing forward.

My most commonly used arrow setup when the kills database was initiated was a Forgewood shaft with either the 190 grain Grizzly, Modified grizzly, Grizzly Extreme or Pearson Deadhead broadhead. That setup was an outgrowth of the Natal testing and the subsequent testing on cape Buffalo. Until the FOC question arose I had never even checked the FOC of that outstanding-performing setup. The FOC turned out to be just over 19%; just barely into the EFOC range. Looking back, I wasn't attributing nearly enough of the performance I was achieving with that setup to the arrow's FOC.

The kills database does include the few animals taken with the #115 pound longbow, and a few others taken with 100#+ longbows, but cumulatively those 100#+ bows total only a handful of animals.

Seems like the Field Data Recording Sheet and Study Protocols are not among the documents listed on TG. Here's a link where you can see them.   http://www.tradbow.com/members/programs/fileinfo.cfm?id=10&action=display

Ed

Offline JimB

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 01:19:00 PM »
Doc,thanks for all the work that you do.It has certainly forced me to look at things differently after doing things the same way for 45 years.

I recently bought some Victory V Force caron shafts in .300 spine to experiment with.have you tried these?They are much lighter than the Gold tips,with slightly less outside diameter but the same inside diameter.So far,they seem to be every bit as tough as the Gold Tips and very consistent.The .300 Victory V Force,so far,seem to be stiffer than the Gold Tips however.

Victory V Force shafts
.400- 6.2 gpi,.282 OD
.350- 6.7 gpi,.284 OD
.300- 6.9 gpi,.287 OD

Offline chopx2

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Re: Barely Above Heavy Bone Threshold Ultra-EFOC Arrow
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2010, 02:19:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JimB:


Victory V Force shafts
.400- 6.2 gpi,.282 OD
.350- 6.7 gpi,.284 OD
.300- 6.9 gpi,.287 OD
JimB,

I use those same shafts and I don't mean to nit pick, but those are the VFORCE HV shafts which are thinner walled than the regular VFORCE shafts which are more comparable to the gold tips dimensionally.

In fact someone here told me about them on my very first post here...was that you?

BTW these make it much easier to break 30% FOC. Only draw back to these shafts that I can see is that the raw shafts are only 31" which wouldn't work for very long draw lengths.

I use the V6s (+/- 0.006") which are affordable as carbons go for my practice arrows and use the V3s (+/- 0.003") for my hunting shafts.
TGMM-Family of the Bow

The quest to improve is so focused on a few design aspects & compensating for hunter ineptness as to actually have reduced a bow & arrow’s effectiveness. Nothing better demonstrates this than mech. BHs & speed fixated designs

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