penetration and "sharpness"

[calgarychef]

This question may have been covered but I can't seem to find specifics.  For those of you who have conducted penetration tests how did you sharpen the broadheads?  I'm wondering about the differences between file sharp and mirror sharp, freehand and with jigs etc. What's the difference with a well defined bevel and an edge done freehand?

I've used files and they produce a rough grabby sort of edge which is the type I like on my kitchen knives for cutting tomatoes etc. It cuts like nobodies business!  I also know that this type of edge is weak and I have to use my sharpening steel often to bring it back.  I've hunted with this kind of edge on my broadheads and it's worked fine.

On the other hand I've also made a very stable sharpening jig where I can use glass and abrasive sheets.  I've gone through the various grits (down to .5 micron) until I've got a mirror polished edge on a very well defined angle.  I got a complete passthrough on a Kudu with this kind of sharpening method but didn't hit bone so it's not the best test.

I'm looking for real world tests not "I use such and such and it kills a 100 lb deer fine"  I'm interested in learning about the big stuff where it really matters and where the difference is apparent.

thanks

[JimB]

I haven't done any testing.I too,used a burr type edge for many,many years and it worked.I have learned now to hone them to a mirror polished edge and that is what I am hunting with.

Ed Ashby did test edges and said this:"A smooth,beard-shaving sharp,honed and stropped edge works best.It's advantage is most pronounced in fibrous tissues.In these it shows a 26% advantage over a smoothly-filed sharp edge and a 60%-plus advantage over "Hill Type" serrated edges.It's an advantage available for all broadhead designs,for all arrows."

That is the only testing I have read about yet, that addresses this specific topic.This,from the 2007 Study Update,Part 8.Oh,and I believe when he says 26% advatage,he is talking about penetration gains.

I know it hurts more when I cut myself with a burr edged blade than a mirror polished one.I often wonder if the mirror polished edge might shorten some blood trails just from this factor alone?

[onewhohasfun]

Ever see a fine knife with a burr edge. No offense to you Tracy but I see these burr edge threads come up every year. Think about it. Would you honestly put a burr, file edge on a knife to gut a deer or quarter an elk?

[amazonjim]

I can't believe the burr edge is the best, I have no test but a few years experience with sharping knives and cutting meat, a sharp no burrs knife always has dut better.

[riot1013]

Originally posted by JimB:
I haven't done any testing.I too,used a burr type edge for many,many years and it worked.I have learned now to hone them to a mirror polished edge and that is what I am hunting with.

Ed Ashby did test edges and said this:"A smooth,beard-shaving sharp,honed and stropped edge works best.It's advantage is most pronounced in fibrous tissues.In these it shows a 26% advantage over a smoothly-filed sharp edge and a 60%-plus advantage over "Hill Type" serrated edges.It's an advantage available for all broadhead designs,for all arrows."

That is the only testing I have read about yet, that addresses this specific topic.This,from the 2007 Study Update,Part 8.Oh,and I believe when he says 26% advatage,he is talking about penetration gains.

 I know it hurts more when I cut myself with a burr edged blade than a mirror polished one.I often wonder if the mirror polished edge might shorten some blood trails just from this factor alone?  

Actually this is the reason you get a better blood trail from the sharper edge.  Pain induces shock which induces a reaction by the body to attempt to limit blood flow to the affected area.  Obviously it is a gaping cut so it will bleed at some point but it may not be instantaneous.  On the contrary a sharper head causes less pain which reduces the body's protective reaction of limiting blood flow.  In short a sharper (less painful) head will bleed quicker than a more jagged(more painful)edge give the same amount of damage.

Riot

[JimB]

Thanks for that,riot1013.It makes sense.

Since posting,I took an antelope with one of those polished edged broadheads.Antelope are notorious runners and cover a lot of ground quickly.This one trotted a few yards,walked a few,laid down and expired,35 yds from the hit.

The group of antelope with her,didn't even react.To date,this is the shortest distance one has traveled.I think the pass through,only contacting ribs,was part of it but I think the polished edge was a contributor too.

[weedwacker]

Good point.  Thanks.

[Rattus58]

Originally posted by calgarychef:
This question may have been covered but I can't seem to find specifics.  For those of you who have conducted penetration tests how did you sharpen the broadheads?  I'm wondering about the differences between file sharp and mirror sharp, freehand and with jigs etc. What's the difference with a well defined bevel and an edge done freehand?

I've used files and they produce a rough grabby sort of edge which is the type I like on my kitchen knives for cutting tomatoes etc. It cuts like nobodies business!  I also know that this type of edge is weak and I have to use my sharpening steel often to bring it back.  I've hunted with this kind of edge on my broadheads and it's worked fine.

On the other hand I've also made a very stable sharpening jig where I can use glass and abrasive sheets.  I've gone through the various grits (down to .5 micron) until I've got a mirror polished edge on a very well defined angle.  I got a complete passthrough on a Kudu with this kind of sharpening method but didn't hit bone so it's not the best test.

I'm looking for real world tests not "I use such and such and it kills a 100 lb deer fine"  I'm interested in learning about the big stuff where it really matters and where the difference is apparent.

thanks

I'm not your resident expert here about sharpening, but I've not lost any game since one unfortunate incident with a Big Billy many years ago.

Back to the question.... I've file sharpened most all of my broadheads followed with a stone and once in a while lansky smooth stone... which I'm not sure is really necessary.

Now Ive only shot axis deer, a couple of sheep, goats and and pigs with my bow, but they all bit the dust, so to speak without the broadhead being what would be considered razor sharp. They cut paper, slice tomatos easily, and will cut rubber bands... but shaving.... well not really....

So... razor sharp I think is best, but I think that if you can get them sharp enough, is gonna do the job if you do your part.

Try as I might, I've not gotten my broadheads (Snuffers mostly) to shave, but I've gotten them to kill often enough.

Much Aloha...  :cool:

[tawmio]

when skinning the burr edge gets filled with fat faster and will seem duller, just my experience, i like the job the "razor sharp paper wheels" make.
Grizzly.com sells them the cheapest.

[snuffysmith]

Shaving sharp, just like a scalpel.

[Mint]

For me it seems like i am getting a lot more pass throughs now that i have really spent the time to get my broadheads shaving sharp.

[Don Stokes]

How could sharper not be better?

[michaelschwister]

In my experience sharper = better penetration. Find a method that works best for you to get there. IMHO a broadhead is not sharp if it will not easily shave hair. I test em on my legs, looks like I have mange during season:-)

[Rattus58]

Originally posted by amazonjim:
I can't believe the burr edge is the best, I have no test but a few years experience with sharping knives and cutting meat, a sharp no burrs knife always has dut better.

A burr is not cutting, it's ripping. A wavy edge has more cutting area, and not the same as a burr... it too needs to be sharp, and frankly for me, if I want more cutting area, I also would prefer more cutting diameter... just me... nothing in evidence... but I will say two things I've experienced in my hunting, as limited as it is compared to most probably here...

1) I'm not a shaving sharp, usually, kinda guy, but it will cut.  I've only lost one animal to archery equipment and some of that was because of a great blood trail and good help/teachers in how to follow up.

2)Penetration. Heavy arrows will penetrate... pretty much anything. Shot placement has a lot to do with penetration except maybe on a cape buffalo type target.. and come to think... probably especially there. I've shot two animals essentially back to front with full length penetration through hams/shoulders... one pig and one deer... These were both misplaced shots but the outcome was ok.... following a little drama with the pig and I'm not suggesting hunting with climbers, necessarily, but could be helpful you insist on taken these illadvised placements...     The point here was, not razor sharp, but snuffers and sharp enough to cut reliably and heavy arrows.

Moral for me.... shot placement and heavy arrows... shot placement and heavy arrows...

Much Aloha....  

[aussiebowhunter]

Moral for me.... shot placement and heavy arrows... shot placement and heavy arrows...add razor sharp then your spot on...

good hunting
pat

[Wickles]

Sharper the better...

[tradshooter]

I am a firm believer in getting your broadheads as sharp as possible whether two blade or 3 blade and heavy or light. That being said I prefer heavy arrows, 3 blade and razor sharp. Bottom line though, arrow placement has got to be right. I have had a pass through with a razor sharp broadhead and the deer jumped, stopped then looked around and expired, not 20 feet of travel. I think that we owe it to the game we hunt, to have our broadheads as sharp as we can get them.

[tradshooter]

My post using a deer as an example was not the best example for posting in the Dangerous Game thread. My apologies for that, but I use the same setup and have the same feelings for sharp broadheads when hunting for black bear in Idaho.

[Bobaru]

After having gutted way too many deer and elk, I can say that a razor sharp knife means I don't wear out myself nearly so quickly.

I've never physically experienced any broadheads, but all the ones I've shot have been complete pass throughs.  

Now, if I was to cut a tomato in the kitchen with a broadhead, I'd stick the point in first, to break the skin...  Oh, yea, that's how I stick a broadhead into a deer...  'nuf said to satisfy me (anyway).

[Terry Green]

Sorry....but I just could not imagine going to the field with a half A$$ sharpened Bhead.....much less advocating it on a forum.  There's a HOST of reasons the sharper the better.

I'll leave it at that before I break my own rules.