Waterbuffalo Setup Advice

[Txnrog]

Well, I finally bit the bullet and am planning a Buffalo hunt with Mick.

Done all the reading, ashby, andy, etc, but still have several questions.

I am basically going to be working to put together 3 setups
1) 64# @ 31" Rampart Recurve - My go to elk bow
2) Low-Mid 70's @ 31" longbow that I am having built - have an excuse, and not totally sold that the 64# is ideal (I can shoot fine in the low 70's, so why not take advantage of it)
3) 55-60lb compound for my Dad (blasphemy I know, but he's in his upper 70's and is not there with trad gear). Hoping to get a similar arrow setup to one of mine with a couple modifications to properly tune. Figure the bow will probably have similar if not more energy than mine, so using the same concepts of strong FOC, 2 blade heads, single bevel, etc will help him over a 'common' compound setup for buffalo.  

Since the 64# is in my hands I have been playing with that. Got it shooting 915gr arrows (CX 350's Weight tubes, 250 gr head), and they tuned well, but not happy with the FOC or broadhead options that weight.  Have thought about trying Easton FMG DG 300's with a 300gr or 315gr head as an alternative - slightly less deflection so should allow a little more weight up front to help FOC.  I always liked the FMJ's narrow, slick shaft and composite design.

First question: Has anyone produced a commercial internal footing? The reading has me concerned about snapping an arrow behind the head (especially if I go with hidden inserts on the FMJ's) I like the idea of an internal to get the weight up front and allow a little more reasonability in spine without increasing diameter. If not, are there any good sources to learn how to make an internal footing?

Second: Is VPA single bevel in production? I already shoot VPAs and think they are stout and great head, but would like to go with a single bevel.

Third: How much FOC is sufficient? I read about HFOR, EFOC, UFOC, but there are limits within reasonable ability to tune. What should I be looking for as a baseline before I chunk a shaft and start on a stiffer option.

Any and all advice appreciated.

[ozy clint]

when are you hunting? i have come up with a BH adapter, insert, internal footing all in one. i'm tuning with the prototype now. when i get it tuned i'm going to get a batch made on a CNC lathe. i'm shooting axis arrows and with a 300gr tuffhead and a 6.75" external footing the total point weight is 730gr. this can be lightened by trimming my 'supadapter'.
PM if interested.

[Txnrog]

Going in mid-June of this year.

Also, have seen a couple poor reviews of some of the high end single bevels anyone with such experience, please  PM me so I know why to watch out for.

Thanks,
Roger

[damascusdave]

It seems to me you could alleviate your concern by simply gluing the broad head and hit insert together and then gluing them in as a unit...I also think your goal ought to be the DG250 rather than the 300...you may find the key to getting them to tune is finding just the right "skinny" string

DDave

[pdk25]

Are you a RH or LH shooter?  I will tell you this as far as single bevels are concerned.  The Tuffheads are a great head, but the adapters are the weakest link for them.  If you plan on using a glue on, the VPA single bevel heads are great.  I prefer the profile of the tuffheads, but have seen VPA single bevels do fine on water buffalo.  I may have a few stashed somewhere if you can't find any.  If you are trying to get alot of FOC on your arrows, you are going to make it difficult with the dangerous game shafts since they are so heavy.  Same thing with weight tubes.  I used gold tip kinetic 200 shaft, but was using a little heavier setup than you will be.  I had mine cut down to 30", though.  I had 100 grain inserts in the shafts, 100 grain broadhead inserts, and 300 grain tuffheads on the business end, which gave a pretty good FOC.  If you are LH, give me a buzz.  I might have a setup that I would let you borrow for your hunt, if you are interested.

[Txnrog]

Thanks for the incredibly generous offer, unfortunately I'm a righty.

Will most likely go with a screw on - never really trust the glue ons for some reason. Plus gives me a little optionality

[pdk25]

No problem.  I have a Black Widow MA 3 that sits on the shelf that is 65# @ 28" that should have put it in the mid 70#'s at you draw length.  Would have been nice to see someone get it bloody.  It is a little light for buff at my 29" draw length, although I know of several people that were successful with a setup no stronger than it would have been for me.  I just have better options.  If you are set on a single bevel screw in, the VPA is very tough.  If you could find some very strong adapters, then Tuffheads would be hard to beat, IMHO.  Either will get the job done.  If you hit the head of the humerus, there, and likely the spine of the scapula as well, nothing will save you short of a firearm.  PM Andy Ivy or Mick Baker.  They will be a wealth of information with the experience they have.

[Michael Baker]

I'll have the perfect arrow just waiting for him when he gets here...It's a surprise don't tell him...lol..

Cheers
Mick

[hybridbow hunter]

You can ask for custom A4 steel insert as infernal footing. Mine are 200 gr, HIT size and goes perfectly in tuffheads. I could cut the tail a tad to go down to 150 gr
It Is really tough.

 

[pdk25]

Laurent, where did you order those?  I don't know anything about A4 steel.  Are they much better than standard steel inserts?  If the inserts hold up, those would be awesome.

[Michael Baker]

It doesn't really matter how strong the insert is it is how strong the arrow wall is to support the insert, With the insert being longer that will help as per those inserts above.....Outserts will far outperform inserts as the whole arrow has to break before failure not just the sidewall. In theory an outsert is better than 100% stronger or in other words twice as strong. It is also far harder to bend an outsert than and insert.  Cheers Mick

[Blaino]

What about hardwood shafts with a solid proven BH that gets in the ballpark of 1000g.
It has worked for a lot of bowhunters. Why not you?

[pdk25]

Mick, Do you mean external footings? I had external footings and the broadhead adapter/insert still bent.  Not sure if that is what you meant.

[Michael Baker]

Pat it is the same principle as footings but as a single piece. footed arrows are not attached to the insert so they still have a weak spot at the join....I make full outsert that the broadheads screws into so it is one piece.
Widowmaker arrows outserts and broadhead

 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/trophybowhunts/image_zpse9e14d94.jpeg

 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/trophybowhunts/image_zpsea7b4004.jpeg

Cheers
Mick

[calgarychef]

Yup, an external footing will be incredibly strong, make sure its longer than your broad head adaptor is.  You'll also gain a lot by glueing the broad head adaptor, you can use heat reversible glue so you can remove the heads if you want to later.  In fact glueing every component together makes a lot of sense; nocks, adapters, footing.  Don't forget a nock collar as well as you might shoot the arrow more than once and I hate it when the nocks mushroom into the shaft and split it.

[hybridbow hunter]

Originally posted by pdk25:
Laurent, where did you order those?  I don't know anything about A4 steel.  Are they much better than standard steel inserts?  If the inserts hold up, those would be awesome.

Those were made by a friend working in tool building. Very strong. If you add external footing it´s really impressive the punishment you must give to brake a shaft. Using titanium same insert will be much lighter in the 110 gr plus you can cut it down if needed.
I am sure a company like VPA could build very easily those insert, solid steel or titanium for a fair price, as there is no threads nor complicate shape. I can't understand why there is so strongly designed and we'll made broadheds glued on so poor brass ou aluminum inserts

[Txnrog]

Mick, What's the outside diameter of those arrows? and weight - i.e. can I tune an arrow over here to those things and put them on once I get over?

Looking forward to it. Working on putting together a heavier setup, and hitting the rubber bands nightly.

[Michael Baker]

Mate will send you an e-mail. Cheers

[ozy clint]

Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
You can ask for custom A4 steel insert as infernal footing. Mine are 200 gr, HIT size and goes perfectly in tuffheads. I could cut the tail a tad to go down to 150 gr
It Is really tough.

     

good for extra weight upfront but no strength gains over a standard screw in adapter since the shank on those are the same diameter as a screw in adapter straight off the back of the taper, which is the likely failure point along with the back of the footing.

better go and take pics of my supadapters............

[ozy clint]

this is what i've come up with. this is a prototype. i plan on getting a batch machined up soon. they will have glue glrooves added. the prototypes were hand machined so it wasn't necessary to add glue grooves at that stage.

they are designed for use with tuffheads. they have a taper slightly larger than 23/64" (little bit bigger than the 23/64" ferrule of the tuffhead) then step down to match an axis shaft's outside diameter. this maximises strength at the back of the BH. then it steps down to HIT insert diameter. the last portion is able to be trimmed if weight needs to be brought down. they are machined from high tensile steel.

   

   

   

   

in my oppinion you want the rear of the footing to be behind the balance point of the arrow. this way the center of mass has NO leverage on that point. the rear of the footing is being dragged into the beast. this is why i have a 6.75" outside footing. this serves the purpose of adding weight, strengthening and stiffening the shaft since i have 730gr upfront out of a 70# border black douglas. even on a full length shaft the flexible portion is around 25" long. basically a 25" arrow with an 8" point. then you can still trim as normal.