WHAT IS CONSIDERD AS AN "ANTIGUE"

[PAPALAPIN]

In furniture, "antique" is any piece 100 yrs or older.  If it is electrical, 50 yrs.  For an automobile, it is 25 yrs.

So at what age is a bow considered an antique.  I recently got a '63 Dogleg Kodiak off eBAY and it was advertised as an  "antique collectible bow".  Now a '63 is 42 yrs old.  What about a 1954 Bear Kodiak II.  It would be 51 yrs old.

So my question is, at what age is a bow considered an antique.  It is not electrical, it is not automotive.  Is there an official designation of age for antique status.  If not, there should be.  What organization would, or should, be authorized to make that determination.  

Your thoughts please.

With this in mind, I guess a wheelie bow will be considered a "new fangled contraption" for a long time to come.

[Dan Worden]

I guess my cut off is around mid 50's. I don't know the dates but maybe it coincides with the start of the fiberglass/modern recurve era.

[raghorn]

Also.......what is vintage??
Antique-I would have to say Pope or Young's bows, basically 1920s.

[Falk]

Please forgive a geologist/paleontologist as it normaly doesn't matter to me if you add or substract one or two million years ...

Speaking for German use/understanding here:
"Antique" is used for VERY old items - e.g. before the middle ages! And I prefer it that way of course. One point to think of when using "antique" as discription is the "customs declaration" when sending an item abroad. If you write "antique/antic" broadhead (or whatever) it is most likely be confiscated by the customs - just to make sure they will not let pass an antiquity without investigation! You wont need that!
"Vintage" - okay - this is some kind of "rubberband" term - IMO it should apply for items before 1900.

Why not use a precise date for items from the 1900s? Why has there always to be some kind of
superlative? If it's from the 1950s - tell them about it! It's NOT antique (IMO) - not even close to.

[PAPALAPIN]

I collect bows mostly from the '60's.  I have seen these advertised by sellers as "vintage" or "antique".

I personall consider bows from the '40's or '50's as "vintage bows".  I am just curiou to see if there is a standard age to be considered "antique" as there is a standaed in furniture, autos, and electrical items.

Everyone will have their own opinion, and I certainly understand that a paleontologist would consider a "vintage bow to be one that had been used to take a Mastodon.  From his point of view an "antique" would be one that took a Veloceraptor.  I don't know that a single arrow would have been able to take out a T-REX.  That would have taken a pre-historic compound bow,  and Allen was not around yet.

[Falk]

posted by PAPALAPIN: I am just curiou to see if there is a standard age to be considered "antique"

Jack, that's absolutely true - it will depend on point of view - but, will also depend on the item as well. There were no cars "short" (geological           )  time ago BUT we do know/have bows from the stone ages or the egypt tombs. This is what I would call "antique". Just a matter of "evenly distributing the terms" over the timespan involved.

I don't think there is any "standard" yet - but you started the discussion and it may end up in one (edit: a standard definition)! That's why I posted my 2 cents ...

[PAPALAPIN]

FALK

You are right sir.  I started the conversation.  And the reason I started it was to seek out comments like yours.  That is what makes a good discussion,  Different points of view.
 
Certainly, most of us are not exposed to archery equipment from long ago historical times, but obviously, you are.

While I concede the existance of "ancient" equipment, I for one would not call it "antique", or "vintage".  However, I understand how someone with your back ground might.

To your knowledge, what is the oldest bow ever found; and what period and geographic area is it from.

[Falk]

Well, it is not that I actually have access to those eldest bows, no - unfortunately not.

About thirty years ago there was an exhibition in a museum near by and they showed some of the originals from Tut-Anch-Amuns tomb. I was a boy then and don't remember these quite well.
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The oldest one I ever saw (in 2002) must be the one from Ötzi ("the Iceman") - who died about 3300 yrs. BC. During a visit to northern Italy I was allowed to see his belongings and himself. A very small and poor little fellow, believe me. It is only an unfinished yew stave in floor tiller stage. But I do have my doubts if this bow was ever ment to be for him! It is 71" long and of very fat layout. Resambeling an old English war LB - good for well over 100# draw weight.
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To my knowledge the oldest remains (finished arrows) were excavated at Stellmoor (30 miles E Bremen, Northern Germany). This is about 70 miles from where I live. Unfortunately they were lost during WW II. So no one was able to dated them using carbon-14 method. But they were supposed to be 9000-8000 yrs. BC!
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Oldest preserved bow known until now will be the Holmegaard bow from Denmark. It dates back to about 8000 yrs. BC. This bow will soon be shown in a museum in Herne (western Germany) - so I can get a close look at it. But going to Denmark (Natinal Museum, Koppenhagen) would also be a nice trip.
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Just to add one more item:
Few years ago they excavated mens oldest hunting weapons ever! Only about 30 miles from my home this time. In a coal pit near Schoeningen seven throwing (!) spears were found. These must have been made by Homo erectus as modern men had not yet evolved 400.000 yrs. ago. So far, these are the oldest distant weapons known. Looks like as if there is some concentration of items like such in the northern part of Germany and around.
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Please don't forget, that I am NOT a native speaker of YOUR language. It is very possible that there are meanings to "antique, acient, vintage" etc. which I just don't get ... it's definately NOT up to me to do a definition for it.

Cheers, Falk
(and good night, 02:45 a.m. out here)

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To those who like to "fly around" with Google Earth - these are the coordinates of the very small village of Stellmoor:
009°21'49'' E
 53°09'07'' N
 
Enjoy!

[raghorn]

This is not meant to be gospel....but it seems that I read somewhere( nice and vaque,eh)-actually the dictionary, that antique is older than 100 years.
"Vintage" generally is a term used for wine. Or:
representive of or dating from a period long past. Now that is a general term!

[PAPALAPIN]

FALK

Very interesting post.

RON

I agree with the dictionary, however, auto collectors establish 25 yrs, and elictrical 50 yrs.  Kind of how FALK put it. "what's in a word".

Although it would be best to identify a bow by the decade, many sellers don't know enough about the equipment to know when it was nade.  Some pick them up at estate or yard sales and don't have a clue about what they have.

[Blackhawk]

In the 1930's, U.S. Customs asked dealers for a definition of "antique" to come up with a solution on what should be free and what should be taxed.  They came up with one that is still used...which says "antiques were objects that pre-dated the mass production of objects in the 1830s."  

With this, Customs defined antique as something made over 100 years ago. Duty was collected on objects younger than 100 years old--and still does.

As we (and objects) get older, the status will obviously change.  The century mark is now recognized as the industry standard for identifying something as antique.  

Sure we can debate whether a 1959 Kodiak, a 1930's Howard Hill longbow, or Art Young's quiver is an antique or not, but if it's not made before 1905, then it's something else, not antique.

[PAPALAPIN]

A GOOD DEFINITE DETERMINATION.

BUT CARS ARE STILL CONSIDERED ANTIQUE AT 25 YRS, AND ELECTRICAL AT 50.

I QUESS SINCE THERE IS AN AUTO ASSOCIATION, THEY MAKE THEIR OWN DISTINCTION.

So, according to US Customs, my collection will not start being considered antique until 2060, and according to FALK,  12060.

[alaskabowhunter]

I consider any bow older than me to be "antique".

[PAPALAPIN]

And do you care to admit what that age would be, so we will all konw.  In my case it would be anthing made before 1946.  That i bettet than FALK's timetable.

[alaskabowhunter]

I would consider my 1960 Kodiaks antiques. I was born in '61 (the same year Glenn St. Charles founded the Pope and Young Club). To me,  "vintage" and 'antique" are synonymous when describing our "collectible" bows, or did I just open another can of worms?    

[PAPALAPIN]

Hey

We can always use more WORMS.

We will always have different opinions on this.  Yours is just as important as anyone elses;  except, mine, which is always the right opinion.

If we had an Archery Collectors Assn, they could set the perameters for what is considered  "antique" and "Vintage".  However, we don't have such an organization, so it is a mute point.

[alaskabowhunter]

That's a good point, there is no bow collectors club or organization. Unlike ABCC (American Broadhead Collectors Club) who are well organized with monthly newsletters, annual meetings, and a "master list". One of their more prominent ABCC members, a good freind of mine from Nebraska has written a very good identification guide for broadheads. It is part of a series of books pertaining to archery collecting that he has written and is continuing to write. The next book will cover Bear hunting quivers and the final book will cover Bear Archery's most collectible bows. That book will be the first identification guide that I have seen pertaining to bow collecting. Now I'm not saying Bear bows are the only collectible bows, far from it. I am just glad to see someone getting the ball rolling. Perhaps someday with some motivation and guidance, the bow collectors out there, like myself, will organize and start some kind club or entity. Which is why I am glad to have found this forum and appreciate anything anyone has to share about bowcollecting. I am a bowhunter first and foremost but a collector too. I build prosthetics for a living and have a real appreciation for the craftsmanship and skill that went into fabricating my beloved vintage recurves. The fact that they still fling an arrow true just like they day they left the factory 45-50 years ago really is remarkable. I hope I build artificial limbs for my patients with that kind of durability and quality.Only time will tell.  I don't consider myself the "owner" of my bow-collection, just the caretaker for the time being.Forgive me if I strayed off the subject and got a little long winded. Chuck

[PAPALAPIN]

CHUCK

A GOOD WAY TO STRAY!

Why wait for an Archery Collectors Assn to start.  Why not start it right here and now.  We already have you and me, now if we can get 4NOLZ on board, we would have a good start.  

First we have to have an election of officers.  I nominate you as the President, Vice President, Secretary and Tresurer.  With only two of us the worst we can do is have a tie vote.  IF 4NOLZ jumps in, he can break the tie.

Of course you and I coulds both vote for 4NOLZ before he joins, and then it will be unanimous.

Seriously though.  We could get a grass roots effort toward that end.  I am sure Terry would allow us our own forum here to get started.

We could call it the TRAD GANG COLECTORS ASSN.  Heck, witht hat name we could use this forum.  It is a Historu and Collecting Forum.

[alaskabowhunter]

Well, I am flattered with your enthusiasm, I was hoping more collectors would've chimed in by now. I am kind of removed from the lower 48 so I'm not sure I could be much help in a leadership role. Where do we begin? I don't think special funky hats or secret handshakes are neccessary but a mission statement or focus should be defined. Just bow collectors? I found most broadhead collectors are "closet" bow collectors. Some guys collect arrows, some collect archery related books, quivers, etc. Collecting bows is a pretty narrow hobby in that most collectors have space limitations for bows so they seem to specialize in a specific brand or model. I personally collect Bear Kodiaks (1950-1966), Kodiak Specials(1956-1960) and Kodiak Magnums (1961-1971) and a few Kodiak Take Downs (1970-71). Last count was over 100 bows, I don't have room for many more... I am looking for only a couple different lengths and wood configurations to complete my collection. Always seems to be room for one more on the racks however! Chuck

[alaskabowhunter]

Here is some eye candy, all variations of the 1959 Kodiak.


 http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/DSC00011.jpg