forgewood/Sweetland

[kurtbel5]

Company is for sale again 75K, I have not shot a forgewood what made them so good?
         Kurt

[PAPALAPIN]

Did't know that they were still in business.  If I remember correctly, they made "footed Shafts" which I think was PO Cedar footed with some hardwood at the front..  I also seeme to remember that the shafts were tapered.  I have never shot them, heck, I have never seen them.  Just remember their old ads in the magazines.

[TRAP]

I've never seen or shot them either, but I thought they were compressed cedar shafts which made them weight more at small diameters.  Someone will enlighten us I'm sure.  

Trap

[d. ward]

Oh yeah,I have shot many Bill Sweetlands.The new type forgewoods are not at all like the old one's Bill made.No one has been able to do it correctly...well not like Bill did anyhow.Sweetland compressed the wood from I believe was 5/8 stock.But Bill made several different types of arrows.The battle-shafts were not taperd and weighed about 500-600 grain shaft weight only on an 11/32 dia.shaft.The taperd one's are my favorites.I only have a few left as those bears in Que'bec keep breaking them.But I got a couple that are 1/4" X 9/32" I believe and with a bear razorhead mounted they weigh about 560-600 grs..600 grains on that small diameter shoot just awesome..I will try and get a couple pics.I just traded a restorations on a bear take down riser and limbs for one dozen Bill Sweetlands 28" boh 60-65# spine.But here's the real cool part.Bills taperd arrows and battle shafts actually had more weight forward but not just from the taper because as I mentioned the BS were not taperd.He compressed the tip end of the shaft more then the back end of the shaft.Thus makeing it weight forward,but also the first 6 inches of the arrows were like footed but not.I got a pic somewhere in an old book Joe gave me of Sweetland shooting one of his forgewoods through a piece of 5/8" pine.No big deal huh ? I do that all the time...right ? But Bill was doing it with no tip on his arrow.He was shooting a fletched shaft with no tip to show how the weight was forward on the shafts...but to show how strong the end of the shaft was Bill used a pine board for a back stop...They were the best wooden arrows ever built and if someone bought that company and got things working correct like Bill had it....Man you would at least have the bowdoc and Dr.Ashby as a customers forever.Ashby love's em too........bowdoc

[kurtbel5]

I was curious, because the company is called "Alaskan Frontier" and I have never read a review or heard anybody shooting their arrows.

Doc,
Did more than Alaskan Frontier,try to make them on Bill's tooling? what happened to his employee's? What wood did he compress?
sorry for all the ?'s, just seems like one of the big arrow makers would have duplicated it.
           Kurt

[Lucas K]

If I remember the Alaska Frontier forgewoods were made from mountain hemlock because they could not get Cedar in the quality and quantity that Mr Sweetland. They did buy the original machinery and the rights to the process from Mr Sweetland

Lucas

[Bjorn]

Here's a pic of the shaft bowdoc decribes along with bows of the day, the longer one was beautifully refinished by bowdoc a few years ago.

 

I have managed to buy a few original Sweetland shafts including one or two that are signed by Mr. Sweetland.
They are so thin a 5/16 shaft is fat by comparison yet these finished arrows weigh 620 grains with 145 up front.

[TRAP]

Was alot of spine weight lost in compression? I'm assuming they were compressed and then spined. What do those arrows spine out at Bjorn?  

Trap

[PAPALAPIN]

OK. so I guess I was not thinking of Sweetland about the footed shafts.

Oldtimers desease creeping back in.

[Bjorn]

Trap entire boards were cut into 32-32" lengths and compressed-it was a technique Sweetland learned during WW2 making propellers.
The tip ends were compressed more making them heavier like the bowdoc said.
Spine was gained by compression-propably double
The spine on the real skinny shafts varied from 40-80+#. The ones I have spine from 45-70 in the skinny diameter-mostly 60#.

I also have the 11/32 shafts made by Forgewoods in Alaska made from either Hemlock or Yellow cedar. Those shafts are 70# spine and too heavy in grain weight for my set up. With 125 up front they weigh 850 grains.

[raghorn]

I have one arrow in my collection that was given to me by a hunting partner of Cliff Coe's. It is 9/32 on the front and 1/4" on the back. It has a 1960 Bear Razorhead mounted to the arrow using a headshrinker adapter. This arrow spines right at 60# and weighs 605 grns.
I had some of the Alasken Frontier arrows and they were great! I believe they weighed 750gr. Because of the hemlock being denser they could not be compressed as much as the cedars were. I think mine were 11/32 in front and 5/16 on the back.

[aromakr]

When Bill Sweetland compressed the cedar bolt it was not a parallel piece. It was tapered being thicker on the point end than the nock end. It was then compressed until it was parallel, thus the point was denser than the nock end. It was then doweled. The difference between "Battle shafts" &  "Forgewoods" is the Forgewood was the #1 quality shaft it was extremely straight, Battleshafts were seconds and slightly crooked, these were cheaper in cost. In acutally Bill got the idea for compressing an arrow shaft from his father. His dad during WW1 was trying to develop armor for the military and compressed every variety of wood he could fine. Bill once told me, in his opinion the only specie that could be successfully compressed into an arrow shaft was POC. Its no wonder there have been failures by those that have tried using Bill's equipment with other than POC.
Keep in mind POC's moisture is an oil, that when steamed and compressed becomes a binder that holds everything together. It acts like a natural glue. They were probably the most durable wood arrow I've ever used and one of the reasons when found they command such high prices from people that know just how good they are.

Bob

[d. ward]

Well said Robert.....I love them too.I just picked up the dozen I mentioned above in my length and draw weight.I traded $240.00 + in bow restoration work and return shipping of the customers bow.Darn near 20.00 per arrow...ya gotta love em......bowdoc

[snag]

Thank you Bob for putting the facts out there. The problem today with this process is finding quality POC to make them out of. POC is a unique wood that works far better in this process.  I am pursuing a source for this wood. If a fairly consistant source can be found this could be resurrected...if not it is just an unfulfilled dream.

[Bjorn]

Bob, thanks for the clarification on where Bill got the idea! Although propellers did sound pretty good! LOL!!

[aromakr]

Snag:
Before spending a lot of money, spend sometime with the forest service people in southwest OR. You might find it very difficult to obtain quality cedar in large amounts. As I understand it, its all done on a bid process.
My friend the late John Dodge told me, in his talks with USFS they told him, they had suspect that when harvesting dead and down POC that some fungus's were being released into the air that could be harmful to live trees in the area. If this is infact true, I would suspect USFS would limit or prohibit harvesting the wood.
I do know there are now at least two shaft manufactures and Japanese buyers biding on what wood is available. I would however like to see the shaft in production again though.
Bob

[snag]

I've been talking with the representative of the Forest Service who handles the sales. Not much left of the good old POC. On the Coquille Indian lands they have a bunch of old growth stumps but are not releasing these either.

[aromakr]

Snag:
I went back to some of my old information on the Sweetland shaft. They were doweled as a first step only, they were then turned between centers on a high speed lathe to the final size then sanded to final finish. A lot of work, which would put them in a extremely high price range. I'm wondering if there is a market for them today? Bill said his press was only capable of compressing a 1000 shafts a day.
Bob

[TimZeigler]

I just got the Jack Harrison book and there is a whole chapter about Bill and his forgewood shafts.  Lots of pictures, explainations and old advertisements to boot.

[snag]

The process is quite amazing actually. Under compression of the wood it is brought up to 220 deg. F and compressed to the desired thickness and density. Then it must cool before removing it from compression. The lignin(natural compound that is like a glue, this is what Bob was referring to) in the wood polymerizes and flows once this heat and force is applied. Cooling the compressed wood re-solidifies the lignin.  
I read that in WWI aircraft manufacturers in Germany used a wood material similar to Forgewood. They used it to make biplane propellers. This is suppose to be the earliest known industrial application of this type.
In Bill's father's metal/machine shop he realized he could manufacture a compressed wood material with a density higher than any natural harwood known.  In fact, the material was so dense it would not float and could be polished to a high gloss. When he filed a patent on the material it was named Forgewood. He found he could produce high density shafts with small diameters as someone has stated. The Forgewood equipment was purchased in the 70's and was relocated up to Washington. Then in the 90's made it's way up to Alaska. It was found while up there that either softwood or hardwood could be compressed with varying degrees of success. Those with the higher lignin content worked the best. It was stated that Sitka Spruce or common coastal Hemlock worked just as well as POC. I can verify this though.
These shafts have been known to be shot into cement cinder blocks and not broken after penetration. I have seen pictures of this. So, the results of this process can be profound. The materials to make them are scarce...unless you can use other woods besides POC.....?