Walnut Prototype Signature Bear TD

[Wade Phillips]

Kelly - The Original Prototype Walnut Bear T/D Riser was pulled from the auction because of some inaccurate information posted on this thread… and the decision was made to keep the riser for a display.

Hopefully the inaccurate information will be cleared up in the near future....

[Wade Phillips]

the real bowdoc, Your post January 10, 2009 05:53 AM “…The box was purchased off gbay as I saw wade buy it…”

You are mistaken about that Walnut Signature Box. While I did purchase one on gbay a few years ago without an insert, the one in the auction is one that I acquired in September, 2008 with the Prototype Bear T/D Walnut Riser. The three Signature Boxes I presently own are shown in the photograph below.

Left… all original un-shot Signature Bow in original Box.
Center… 1967-1968 Prototype Bear T/D Walnut Riser in Signature Box with modified insert as I received when I purchased a collection in September, 2008. Signature box is original, but obviously not original to riser.
Right… the Signature Box I bought off gbay a few years ago, which did not have the insert in it when I bought it. I use it to store Bear Knife, File and Stone Sets.

In the future, before you make any statements about any items that I own or have for sale, feel free to contact me directly rather than formulate assumptions.

Most respectfully, Wade

 

[kurtbel5]

Mr Phillips,
 With all the scams on E@ay, An open discussion of whats for sale there,especially on a history/collector forum,is one of the reasons I frequent here.
I see that you are a master of Bear history and have a stunning collection,but for a lot of us these discussion's are a way for us to learn as much as possible about something 99% of us can't hold or see.
   Respectfully
   Kurt

[Wade Phillips]

Krut – With all due respect, no disrespect was or is intended to anyone. My only interest is in historically accurate facts.

I agree 100% with your statement “With all the scams… An open discussion of whats for sale there, especially on a history/collector forum, is one of the reasons I frequent here.”

I am assuming that after everyone has presented their “speculation”, that at the end of a thread you want to know the truth.

I simply presented the actual fact that some of the statements in this thread are mistaken. I also presented a photograph to show that what I stated is accurate.

I would certainly hope that everyone else would do exactly the same thing about any mistaken information that is presented on any thread by anyone.

I believe the Trag Gang User Agreement states in part.. “…If you want to disagree, then please do so in an adult manner. Debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another, but it must be done in an honorable fashion.”

[sticknstring+]

This forum is an amazing wealth of knowledge that seems to keep even the most knowledgable of the bunch interested and learning new things.
 
When rare or one of a kinds pop up it is invaluable for the group to share different thoughts,facts or opinions. Especially when the item is from an unknown or unknowledgable seller, here or on the big auction.

Unless someone has proven themself untrustworthy or shady, casting doubt on their auction does not seem right or go with the theme of this site.
 I recently picked up what I believe is a rare or one of a kind from fleabay and had almost no competition. I am positive that was the direct result of doubt of authenticity brought up in this forum. Very Good for me, but not so good for the seller.

Casting stones at a shaky house is one thing, casting them at a stone house(Mr. Philips) is totally different. They may bounce back and hit you square in the cranium.
                     Greg

[d. ward]

Wow glad this came back to the top and as normal I would say bull shrimp.
You gotta admitt Wade that was pretty damn good from my menory to remember who bought an empty box almost 2 years ago.I sure thought it was a lined box however I've been wrong once or twice before and see I will admitt it.OK that ai'nt the box Wade bought off gbay damn it I was wrong wrong wrong.
If I'd known all I had to do was insult your box to get you to come on trad gang and share your expertise with other collecters ?? You gotta be chitting me ? I would have done it a lot sooner.even if their pissed at me chit happens.Wade you may have to take a number..I think there may be several ahead of you in the being pissed at bowdoc line...hell there may be several hundred even...bd

[Moooseran]

For interest to all...Check out my website at

 www.mooseran.com

[d. ward]

Your sight is looking good Moose.I had not been in sometime.Popped in checked it this AM.bd

[TRAP]

I received several Virus Warnings when I visited the site.  

Trap

[d. ward]

Crap I don't got no virus protection on this puter eather..darn darn darn.Of course I had to look too.bd

[kurtbel5]

Don,
 Go to Mcafee web site and get the free anti-virus download,its pretty good.
     Kurt

[Wade Phillips]

BowDoc… I truly appreciate your candid post of January 15, 2009 03:51 PM… However, you over did it a bit by stating that you were “…wrong, wrong, wrong.” One “mistaken” would have been sufficient. Yes, your memory is pretty good even after the passing of a couple of years, most of the facts were accurate. Hey, at my age, I have difficulty remembering what I had for my last meal.  

Despite what some may think, the only person I am upset with for this episode is myself… for not originally creating a 100% historically accurate, and complete text about the item that I offered. Frankly, it is not my style to do anything less, and I blew it.  

BowDoc… I’m certainly not upset with you for any reason. We’ve been friends for years, I hope that never changes, and I hope that you will never change. I would be more than disappointed if you ever would alter your “shoot from the hip”, “comic-relief” style, and become more like me with my overly dull “anal retentive”, “factual based” mentality.

My only objective in continuing this thread, is to try to bring to light, the known facts about the Prototype Walnut Risers, so in the future, others will not have to attempt to rediscover these facts. Hopefully this can be accomplished with a few additional posts from others and myslef over the next few days.

Hopefully, everyone will offer additional facts that are not presented, and additional posts will focus only on facts or questions about the Prototype Walnut Risers.

First, we should establish that Bear Archery documentation from the era exists regarding the Prototype Walnut Risers…

In the 1970 Bear Archery Catalog, Fred Bear is pictured on this inside cover with what is obviously a Prototype T/D Riser made of Walnut. Note the belly glass ends about 1-1/2” from the latches. There may be additional Bear Archery documentation from the era in magazines or catalogs. Does anyone know of any additional information produced by Bear that shows the belly glass ending 1-1/2” from the latches?

Note the grain of the Walnut in the Fred is holding, it is different than the one Moose pictures on his site, which also has the belly glass ending 1-1/2” from the latches... On his site, Moose notes that he as a set of four 8x12 photographs of his riser and that the photographs are hand signed by Owen Jeffery acknowledging that he made the riser while working for Bear in R&D.

 

[Wade Phillips]

Fred’s latches are dull like the latches on the Walnut Riser I have. Yes, the riser is also measurably more blocky then production bows.

Bear was well known for re-using old photographs in their catalogs as well as using photographs of experimental bows. Obviously, Bear tried to minimize the time and money to create catalogs. This explains the photographs of Fred with the Prototype Walnut Riser in the 1970 Bear Catalog. We can safely date the Prototype Walnut riser before printing of the 1970 Bear Catalog.

[Wade Phillips]

Last night I read and re-read the entire 4-page Patent 3,502,063 for the Bear T/D Bow, filed May 20, 1968. The first page with 5 illustrations shows the belly side of the T/D riser being one continuos line from the grip to the latches (see Fig. 1, Fig. 2, Fig. 3, and Fig. 5). I found no mention of construction material options, wood types etc., in the 3-page text.

The 1967-68 date for the Prototype Walnut is chronologically logical…
The Prototype design of ending the belly glass 1-1/2” from latches was abandoned…
By May 20, 1968, when the patent was submitted, the glass on the belly was extended to the latches…

Note these latch illustrations with screws on back and belly and extra fastening hardware, logically they precede the production latch design. However, one never knows what sequence was followed exactly as development stages of products is oftentimes very different.

 

[Horney Toad]

Thanks to you guys for the interesting info.
Thanks to Moose for the web link. I forgot about that website. Those bows are unreal!

[wadde]

Wade, you and I have done business in the past and it is nice to see you chime in here. It is correct that sequences and catalogs as well as pics are not the absolute in dating bows by bear. I think it is a shame that you are on the defense here and encourage you to continue to do battle with those of us on the site. The information contributed by all is priceless not only to the beginners, collectors, shooters, and traditional archery enthusiasts. It is topics such as this one that make this site special. You can not find information like this anywhere else. Every member should have the philosphy that the more they learn the less they know.

[Earl E. Nov...mber]

The Protos look like he was trying to use a common grip on the A and the B.
The area inside the accent lams looks A riser with more wood on the ends.

[Wade Phillips]

Steve – My only objective is to get all existing information from 1967 to 1970 about the Prototype Walnut Riser, recorded on this thread. To use your word “battle”, the only “battle” I am trying to wage is against our collective ignorance to the recorded facts of the era about the Prototype Walnut Risers.

Earl – Yes, the accent laminations of the Prototype are at an angle that is similar to the Production A Riser. The contour of the belly is very different than either the A or B Production. The contour of the back is similar, but still different, than the Production B. The entire silhouette of the Prototype is noticeably larger than the Production B.

[Wade Phillips]

No knowledge on my part here, just trying to dig up facts from the from the 1967-1970 era about the Prototype Walnut Risers. Regarding Bear’s records of the T/Ds, I have no personal knowledge of any of those records, other then having a copy of Frank Scott’s ledger in which he tracked the serial numbers, owners, returns, and replacements for the Signature Bows.

It is important for all collectors to realize that for most companies with a factory environment, the purpose of recording items and/or giving them serial numbers was mainly for warranty purposes and/or for full or partial replacement or repair. For the most part, prototype or experimental items were not mass produced items intended for sale, and if they recorded at all, there were probably not recorded in the same manner as production items for warranty purposes. Remember, companies like Bear were in the business of making money… they were not in the business of giving every item a specific sequential serial number and documenting and recording every item for posterity so it would be easy for collectors to understand 40 or 50 years later.

As collectors, that is our job, to dig up this obscure information. That is why books, magazines, catalogs, and photographs are so valuable to serious collectors. Let’s face it, if a collector doesn’t even know that the Walnut Prototype Risers exists, they are probably not going to spend time looking for information about something they don’t realize even is in existence. Even if they see a photograph of a Prototype Riser, if they do not know it exists, they may not even recognize it as being a Prototype Riser…

[Wade Phillips]

February 1, 1969 – Fred Bear Announced Take-Down… Just found this nearly 40-year-old article…

 “Archery World”, May 1969, Page 78, “Bear’s Newest Is Take-Down Bow. A New, Take-Down Hunting Bow that fits into a case 22 inches long, yet can be assembled within seconds into a 60-inch bow without the use of tools was introduced February 1 by Fred Bear at the N.S.G.A Show in Houston, Texas… The riser unit is available in short and medium lengths. Three sets of limbs fit both riser sections. With the short riser, the limbs form bows 56 inches long, 58 inches long and 60 inches long. The same limbs combined with the medium riser make 60 inch, 62 inch and 64 inch bows… Like all Bear bows, the Take-Down Hunting Bow was tested and proven by Fred Bear personally on big-game trails. He used it to bring down three Alaskan Moose, a caribou, an African Cape Buffalo, and, within the past few months , an Asiatic Water Buffalo during a safari along the Amazon River in South America...”

The 1.5” x 2” black & white photograph in article is dark and grainy but shows a LEFT HAND Prototype Bear T/D with the glass ending 1-1/2” from the latches. Riser and limbs are laying on front page of “The Buck Bellows” with headline “New Bear Bow Downs Buffalo.” Grip has small piece of extra material added at area where my makeshift arrow is pointing. Also note refection on this added material.

Also note illustrations of the risers and limbs toward bottom of page… Lots of leads to follow up now…