Wood and Carbon - Why are hardwoods testing better?

[bowbert]

Gents,
 
I read the Dr. Ashby report where he stated that hardwood arrows are much, much less likely to fail upon impact to heavy bone then carbon or aluminum shafts.  Does anyone know why that is?  I am assuming it's because carbon arrows transfer energy more effieciently, but I've got no idea if that's correct.  I've wondered if the difference in energy transfer from the arrow to the target is there reason (noodling shaft material vs. stiff one.)  Anyone know?

Just curious,
Bret

[Bill Carlsen]

I've killed nearly 50 big game animals with all types of arrows...aluminum, carbon, cedar, ash, etc. Never ever had an arrow fail on impact. I know of only one fellow who bought some birch arrows from me years ago claim that he hit a big buck in the shoulder with a cedar arrow and it broke on impact. I've been around this sport over 55 years and that was the only claim of that type I have ever heard.

[Molson]

Never seen a failure on a hit either.  I could see the possibility of an insert getting shoved back into the shaft on a heavy bone hit, but even that seems pretty unlikely.

[SuperK]

I hit a doe the other week in the shoulder blade with a 50lb. Super Kodiak with a cedar arrow and an Ace standard 145gr. broadhead.  When the arrow hit, it bounced back like I had hit a tree with a blunt.  The shaft broke-off at the base of the broadhead.  The deer spun around and started off carring the leg up on the side I hit her on.  She went about 50 yds. and bedded down.  I was able to ease up on her and get another arrow in her to finish her off.  The broadhead did not penetrate far enough thru the shoulder blade to enter the ribcage.  It did penetrate far enough that the tip was cutting/scratching the ribcage.  I guess that's why she bedded down so quickly.  That was a first for me!!  (P.S. I have been bowhunting since 1973)

[Homebru]

Bowbert,
You may want to go back and re-look...one of the things I took away from Dr. A's report was not that the arrows broke on impact but that carbon arrows had a tendency to "glance off" more frequently than wood arrows.  The "noodling" you refer to, may in fact be part of the benefit with wood arrows, that they'll bend more and penetrate rather than stay rigid and "glance off" with less than perpendicular shots.

Just a thought.
homebru

[waterone]

You want to finish reading all the reports - even the updates.  Some of what he said some years ago (reading articles published in magazines) have been developed a bit more.  Remember his shaft of choice used to be the now-unavaliable Forgewood Battleshafts.  Aren't produced, can find them on the auction site sometimes, but be prepared to spend BIG bucks for the arrows as they are collectors items.

He has written in later articles and postings that he is happier with carbons now, especially with higher FOCs.

If you are looking for the what he has stated lately, either ask him or do a search on what he has written lately.

Going to Africa or OZ for buff?

[Bjorn]

I understood Dr. Penetration to be particularly fond of the qualities of double tapered Hickory, and singled them out as perhaps a replacement for Forgewoods. Anybody else see that?

[12ringman]

Originally posted by SuperK:
I hit a doe the other week in the shoulder blade with a 50lb. Super Kodiak with a cedar arrow and an Ace standard 145gr. broadhead.  When the arrow hit, it bounced back like I had hit a tree with a blunt.  The shaft broke-off at the base of the broadhead.  The deer spun around and started off carring the leg up on the side I hit her on.  She went about 50 yds. and bedded down.  I was able to ease up on her and get another arrow in her to finish her off.  The broadhead did not penetrate far enough thru the shoulder blade to enter the ribcage.  It did penetrate far enough that the tip was cutting/scratching the ribcage.  I guess that's why she bedded down so quickly.  That was a first for me!!  (P.S. I have been bowhunting since 1973)

I had the exact same thing happen with a Grizzly 2 years ago with a 62# Doug Hill longbow and a cedar arrow. I hit her just behind the shoulder at about 6 yards and it would have been a high lung hit. The arrow had broke at the broadhead and had about 1" of blood on it. My son shot her 2 weeks with a muzzleloader and I retrieved the broadhead that was lodged in the upper rib never getting in the chest cavity. The rib was dislocated from the spine though. I wont shoot wood ever after that from a 85# dressed doe.
P.S.
Goldtip has some very interesting slow motion video of "noodling" aluminum vs. rigid carbon. If it bends you loose penetration. Also, try this. Bend a carbon like a "Ugly Stik" commercial (end to end)and see when it breaks. Then do it with a wood or aluminum.  

[Jacko]

As I understaand Ed's 07 update and the failure rate of tubular arrows vs hardwood shafts on angled impact shots what happens is that the shafts flex and are snapping off behind the incerts because of a concentration of flexing forces focusing on the end of the incerts, apparently there is some ongoing development work going for internal footings for carbon arrows to fight this problem . Ed had a better explaination and name for it and I could not locate it in the report in the amount of time I have this evening - forgive me . regards Perry

[bowbert]

I haven't studied all of Dr. A's reports, but I was referencing the most recent report (Nov 07) where he stated that hardwood arrows are 10 times more durable from arrow impact damage than other materials.  Here's the link.

 http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2007update2b1.pdf

Very interesting, although he does state that POC does not show the same durability (obvious).

It's a good discussion, and an interesting read.

Bowbert

[Naphtali]

Bowbert: Your query is accurate but incomplete, I think -- that is, the analysis did not end with the conclusion that carbon shafts are inherently weaker, or more likely to break.

The weakness you mention was a point of departure. Dr. Ashby identified factors enhancing durability of carbon shafts, to remedy, at least in part, the weakness he identified. These data he furnished to at least one shaft manufacturer. He also included the proviso that were nothing to come from data he forwarded, he would make it available to everyone.

Viewing Ashby's data from a slightly different perspective from yours, I conclude that subsequent generations of carbon shafts will be no more likely to shatter, deflect, or otherwise fail than the best wood shafts while retaining carbon shaft's superiority in terms of penetration, ability to use extreme FOC techniques, and other benefits of inert material.

[Bjorn]

I shoot wood exclusively-just because I like working with it better than the other arrow materials. I was very skeptical of the reported results. What? Wood is better than carbon or aluminum? That can't be!
Well, the great archers of the past-Hill, St. Charles, Bear, Pope, Young to name a few, along with gals and guys like the rest of us, made some very creditworthy kills with wooden arrows. Carbon, aluminum, wood, all have their place and good and bad points. You just have to decide what's best for you, and ignore the manufacturer's marketing claims.