Fred Bear – 1966 Arrowhead Attaching Means

[Wade Phillips]

Fred Bear – 1966 Arrowhead Attaching Means

On Nov. 2, 1966, Fred Bear applied for a patent for an Arrowhead Attaching Means, and on Sept. 17, 1968 was granted Patent 3,401,938.

This patent was the forerunner of the modern AMO 8-32 screw-in but is very different... it has the female threads in the broadhead adapter and the male threads inside the arrow shaft…

 


The patented inside threaded broadhead adapter originally attached to a Bear Razorhead is a fairly rare item (below, at top right).

Bear arrows with the male threaded bushing (below, at top left) have proven far more difficult for me to locate. After searching for for the past 30 years, I finally found a few in 2008, but the feathers are pretty well shot.

Does anybody have any of these Bear pre-Converta Bushing Arrows with some with mint feathers?

I am also looking for one of the field points and blunts with these female threads as shown above in Fig 4 and Fig 5...

 

[Cody Roiter]

Great stuff wade

[Cody Roiter]

Wade I think I may have a blunt point.. I will have to see.. Was bear the only one making arrows like this... ?

[johnnyrazorhead]

Wade- I've got one arrow with the blunt point style on an arrow I got from Floyd in a trade a few years ago.Seems he had a whole box of them at the time.Didn't you end up with them? I recall there being a small typed note included in the box from Fred to Floyd asking him what he thought about this idea.
 
 

[PAPALAPIN]

Wade

Didn't Bear eventually come out what came to be the RPS system, or did someone else come out with it and Bear marketed it?

The Convert-a-Point system.

[Wade Phillips]

John - There was no note in the box that I got. Unfortunately, by the time I got the box the feathers were nearly all eaten by bugs and there were no points.

Jack - Yes, Bear later introduced the Convert-a-Point System, but it is the AMO 8-32 threads with the male threads on the point and the female threads in the shaft. The bushings in the shafts were some type of nylon or plastic rather than aluminum.

All the Convert-a-Point arrows that we used beginning about 1970 were designated with a number, "Magnum 320".

I'll bet the Pre-Convert-a-Point arrow in John's photograph does not have any designation on the shaft at all.

John - What is hand written in ink on your arrow?

[johnnyrazorhead]

If I remember correctly,at the time I got the arrow,all of them were in very nice condition.Too bad the bugs got to them and the note was missing.The writing is a personal message from Floyd to me which he signed when I got the arrow from him.One of the few items I ever traded with Floyd.

[doug77]

Wade I have 4 arrows that say MAGNUM 312  with a different kind of inscert any Idea what they are.

doug77

[Wade Phillips]

John - Hopefully the note survived and is in someone's collection. I'm certain that I never saw it.

It is perfect that you got the arrow when you did and got it with the blunt. I'm sure there are some field points and blunts around somewhere.

Just checked the catalogs. The Converta-Point was introduced in the 1968 Catalog. The Pre-Converta Point was not in the 1967 Catalog.

In 1966, I know Fred was using the Pre-Converta Point which is consistent with the date he filed the Patent Application. Will have to check to see if I can find anything about it earlier than 1966.

It is amazing how few of the Bear Pre-Converta-Point arrows have survived.

I've seen many of Glenn St. Charles Olimpic and Olimpia Centerload arrows. But again have never see a field point or blunt for Glenn's arrows.

When you got the arrow, did all the arrows have blunts on them?

Also nice that Floyd wrote a message to you on the arrow. Floyd was a great guy.

[johnnyrazorhead]

Wade-I do seem to remember all of the arrows having blunts on them.Either that or some with blunts and some with no points at all.It's been quite awhile since I got it so my memory is a little fuzzy on that detail.But I do remember the note.It was on a small piece of paper,typed,saying something like "Floyd,try these out,see what you think" or something along those lines.I shoulda got the note too.
 It was nice to have Floyd personalize the arrow for me.He was a great guy.

[Cody Roiter]

I have a old Ben Pearson Flu-Flu arrow thats looks like it has  the Pre-Converta Point which has a blunt... i will try and get a pic tomorrow if i can

[Wade Phillips]

John - Floyd had a few Bear Razorheads with the Pre-Converta-Point female threaded adapter in them, which he traded to other collectors. All the collectors I know who have/had one of these heads, got them from Floyd. Makes sense that Fred gave Floyd a dozen of the arrows, probably half with blunts or field points and half with Razorheads. That was common for a dozen arrows in that period. Years later when organized collecting got started, Floyd probably removed the Razorheads and traded the heads to collectors. Impossible to say for sure, but it is the most obvious scenario.

Ever seen a field point with this same inside threaded adapter?

[johnnyrazorhead]

That is quite possible Wade.I don't recall any of the other arrows having Razorheads on them,I would have probably gotten one with a Razorhead,but it's possible.Here's a picture of the cresting on my arrow.Does it match any that you have or have seen that had Razorheads on them?
 I have not seen any other arrows with field points in them with this threaded adapter.
 

[Wade Phillips]

John - Your arrow is identical to mine, shaft color, dip, cresting, colors, nock, and feathers, except of course mine is bug eaten.

The patent application was 1966. Obviously Fred gave Floyd the Pre-Converta-Point arrows to try out before Bear introduced the differently threaded Converta-Point in 1968.

Organized broadhead collecting began in 1974 with formation of the ABCC. I know Floyd traded Pre-Converta-Point Razorheads to other collectors within the first year after formation of the club.

I also know Floyd did not have any Pre-Converta-Point Razorheads left to trade in the early 1980s.

I'd guess you probably saw the Pre-Converta-Point arrows sometime in the 1990s, long after all the Razorheads for the arrows were gone.

At this point, it is probably impossible to ever find out exactly how many Pre-Converta-Point blunts, field points and broadheads were included with the arrows when Fred gave them to Floyd.

Just a note about broadhead collecting in the 1970s and 1980s. Back then, very few collectors were interested in collecting arrows. Most collectors only wanted broadheads. They nearly always removed the broadheads from arrows and put the broadhead in their collection. Back then, I traded for a lot of discarded arrows from other collectors who had either removed the broadhead from the arrow or in the worse case scenario, just cut off a few inches of the arrow leaving the broadhead with a peg on it so it could be easily mounted in their collection. I still have a beautiful 1930s, 3-point footed  arrow that had a few inches cut off it. When I got it from the collector in the mid 1980, the collector considered the arrow to be very unimportant. Also have a elegantly multi-layered footed English Prize Arrow that suffered the same demise at the hands of the same collector. Every time I look at those arrows, I shake my head.

In my day, I have removed some broadheads from arrows when forced to, but never destroyed the arrow in the process by cutting it off.

Now, back in the 1920s and 1930s, even Roy Case, removed broadheads from arrows and put the broadheads in his collection. But I don't know of any examples of Roy chopping off an arrow to get the broadhead. And the arrows that Roy removed the broadheads from were made by some of the real pioneer bowmen who made some great arrows that nearly all of us would love own now.

[JavelinaHink]

You Guys are Killing me...I only have 5 days to get the displays orginized and loaded...but I do have a couple of pic's of arrows from Floyd's collections.
First one is like the two you have posted except it split open and the whole unit can be removed to view.
Second arrow was Fred's Lion Arrow.

 

 
   Hink

[johnnyrazorhead]

Wade- You are probably right about all of the razorheads being gone before I got my arrow as I really didn't remember there being any with broadheads in the box.
 Not to stray too far from the topic,I thought this arrow might be of interest.It appears to be from the same time frame as the others above and I was told by the gentleman I got it from that it was used around the same time as the others,sometime in the mid 1960's.It is a podded arrow that was given to this gentleman,Mr. Art Linde,by Fred Bear to shoot a deer with.This is when Fred was talking with the Michigan DNR or the Conservation Dept. to see if they would agree to see what would happen if an animal was wounded using a poison,or podded arrow.This is an arrow Art used to shoot a deer.He said he intentionally made a bad hit to see what would happen.The deer did die but I remember Art saying it was the most awful thing he had ever seen.Evidently these poison arrows never found much support here in Michigan.Just thought it was another interesting arrow from that same time frame.Ol' Fred was always thinking of something.
 
 

[Wade Phillips]

Hink - I knew you had it but was waiting for you to post photographs of the Lion Hunt arrow rather then state the obvious.

That hunt was in 1965 in Macambique Africa.

Which means we can officially date the Pre-Conterva-Point as existing in 1965, which is before the Nov 2, 1966 Patent Application Date...

Who has time to re-read Chaper 13 in "Fred Bear's Field Notes" this evening and give us the cliff notes synopsis of any mention or hint of the Per-Converta-Point system. I've read it several times but was never looking for this specific information.

Right now I am covered with sawdust from head to foot making a display case for some of John Grumleys personal hunting bows to take to Compton next week... I need to get out of the house and back in the garage before the war department finds me in here with sawdust on my clothes.

John - Interesting story about Art Linde. Check the Second Edition of "1871-1971" which shows 5 of Art's broadheads...

[johnnyrazorhead]

Wade-I remember the section in your book with Art's home-made heads.I've got one of them on a signed arrow I got from Art many years ago.

[jcar315]

Didn't Fred patent this "poison arrow" too? I forget which book but one of them mentioned how Fred really thought this was a good idea but others argued against it. How did he start down this rabbit trail?

[Wade Phillips]

John C. - As the leading manufacturer in this field and the most respected name in archery, it was Fred's responsibility to look at anything that might improve bowhunting. Hind sight should be 20/20, and undoubtedly, Fred had not thought through it before he started his experiments and guessed all the negative things that would happen it the poison arrow was accepted. Fred had two patents in thees products. To Fred's credit, he experimented with it, then dropped it and never did marketed it.