Another question for you Bear gurus...

[twigflicker]

In another post, I asked about a factory bushing on the riser of a 65 Kodiak I have... the consensus was that it was factory...

My other question is... did they make a 4 arrow leather top with a spring arm on top and the bottom that fit the bushing in the riser... or are they all just double spring arms...

Sorry for the newbie questions...

I just like the looks of the brown leather tops better...

Jonathan

[PAPALAPIN]

I don't think so.

The leather tops were early model quivers that were discontinued long before the converta systems were introduced.  The converta systyems is part of what the bushing was used for.

[TRAP]

Jonathan, I like the leathertops as well.  Unfortunately, there was no quiver like you describe offered in Bear catalogs.  

Several people have modified the leathertop spring arm quiver by cutting off the lower spring arm and adding the lower bracket from a leathertop bolt-on.  

If you choose to make this modification, make sure the upper arm is not attached on the working part of the limb.

Trap

[twigflicker]

Thanks for passing along the knowledge...

Jonathan

[Wade Phillips]

Jonathan,

Actually Fred's original leather cap spring arm quiver was exactly as you describe, leather cap, top spring arm, with bottom bolt on bracket.

Apparently, it was never marketed as I've never seen nor heard of any advertisement for it.  

However, I do have Fred's own words from a letter which authenticates the existence of this quiver before the development of the dual spring arm leather cap quivers that we know today.

I was also very fortunate to acquire one of these rare original Single Spring Arm Leather Cap Quivers, but have never used it.

Although I have never seen another original, nor heard of another one in a collection, from Fred's letter, I do know that Fred had several of them in his possession at the time of his letter.

A number of years ago, for my personal use, I modified a spring arm and added a lower screw on bracket as Trap describes.

You can see it on the 2003 photograph on the 1960 Kodiak that is shown on my profile.

Mine is not identical to Fred's original. I made it before knowing of Fred's original Single Spring Arm Leather Cap or Fred's letter.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and the contentious re-invention.

[Hud]

I have seen pics of the old leather top, with upper and lower spring arms, but none with the upper spring arm and lower bolt arm. However, Bear was always the contrarian, and stuff did not always appear in their catalogs. I am not surprised to find that Wade has one, and confirmed their existence.

I have not seen one in copies of old Bear Facts, Bear Tales, and Bear Big Sky newsletters from Bear Archery and in different books about Fred Bear.

However, I believe one of the earliest models produce and marketed had a solid back and lower arm, and first appeared in 1944. Later models with an double spring arm and "L" shaped upper and lower brackets (tape on model) were available in the mid-1950's.

Sometime around 1950 the popular leather top began to appear with the lower arm and wire frame. Double spring arms and "L" brackets followed. Several tape on models can be seen in Glenn St. Charles' book, "Bows on the Little Delta" (page 149 and 181).

Fred Bear tested equipment sometimes for several years before making it available to the public. I think the double spring arm on the 4-arrow quiver, was offered for a short run prior to the 8-arrow which appeared with a double spring arm, before the lower bolt arm model. Fred used the double spring arm 8-arrow quiver in 1960, and used his T/D in Africa in 1965. Both were offered several years later.

I believe this maybe why we do not see the model you ask about. Fred used the 4-arrow with the lower arm thru 1959.

I think it would be interesting to see pictures of the different models, and dates they were available.

[twigflicker]

Thanks guys...

Leave it to me to want what only Fred was known to have... thanks for the heads up Wade...

Your picture from 2003 is exactly what I was dreaming of... I thought it would look mighty cool on that '65 Kodiak...  I just like the brown quivers better...

I may just have to scrounge some parts... I have a friend that may have what I need... if I can beg it off him...

Jonathan

[Wade Phillips]

Jonathan -

At one time there were several of these quivers so it is entirely possible for someone to turn up another or even a number of them.

In Fred's letter that I mentioned earlier, he states that he is sending some of these quivers to the person who the letter is addressed to.

Fred used a Scabbard as early as 1944 which is well documented. Fred encountered a patent dispute with the bow quiver and was able to prove that his invention had preceded the disputing party's, and Fred was granted the patent. Fred is shown in some film footage describing some of the details of this dispute. To my knowledge this particular footage was never released by Bear. I have watched it several times. Lots of really interesting footage of Fred that was never put on the series of VHS and CDs that Bear sells. But then all of footage of Fred that has been relased, is also very interesting footage.

Barry - Your statement...

"Sometime around 1950 the popular leather top began to appear with the lower arm and wire frame."

Actually Bear's 1940s scabbard bow quivers had a wire frame too, that is what held the leather in place. If you remove the leather from the scabbard bow quiver, the wire frame and lower bracket are nearly dead ringers for the screw in leather cap bow quiver wire frame and lower bracket.

In 1955 when Fred sent a letter to his friends with samples of the experimental Razorhead, in the last paragraph Fred actually recommended that if a bow quiver was used, that the leather covering (on the scabbard quiver) should be removed and discarded. I've seen two of the surviving original letters that Fred sent to his friends with the experimental Razorheads.

Not sure of the exact date of the earliest document that mentions the 4-Arrow Leather Cap. I simply have it recorded as 1955 with no reference document cited. I'll have to research that over the next few days.

I believe the wire frame Bear bow quivers that appear in photographs taken prior to 1955 are actually 3-Arrow Scabbard quivers with the leather removed from the wire frame.

If you look closely at those pre-1955 photographs I believe you will notice there is no aluminum cowl that holds the leather in place. They are really just the 3-arrow scabbard bow quivers with no leather covering the wire frame.

[jcar315]

Wade, I can't get enough of the info / wisdom you have about all things Bear! Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it. Learing more every day thanks to you and others here. John

[raghorn]

The leather top quiver ran until 1971. In 1972 Bear introduced a 4 arrow plastic hood,upper spring arm, lower bolt bracket. This was designed for the TDs.

[Wade Phillips]

Ron - Yes, 1971 was the last year for the leather cap quiver.

1971 was also the last year for any of Bear's Leather Hunting Quivers....

"Broadheads 1871-1971"

1971 was about the last year for a lot cool old archery stuff...

[JavelinaHink]

Here is a scabbard quiver that's been cutout and its on one of Bob Meekers bows......Hink..

 

[Wade Phillips]

Hink -

Cool photograph. That lower bracket between the wires looks like Swiss cheese. What was going on there?

Have never seen a bracket with to many holes.

[JavelinaHink]

Wade... not sure why all the holes unless they line up on different arrow holders(metal bracket holding the rubber)......Hink...  

[Grant Young]

Wade- I'd love to see a detailed pic of either the leather top that you modified or the one you have boxed up. I have some leathertop spring arms and tape ons and could probably cobble one together. I use a short-arm leathertop on a Saxon Kadiak and it works okay but the two arms are slightly long and the fit isn't as snug as I'd like. I believe Chuck Dougherty has one of these as well....I love it here, between the members of this crowd a guy can learn about anything; even an old buzzard like me...Grant

[Wade Phillips]

Grant - Yes, after seeing mine, Chuck Dougherty liked the idea so I gave him some parts, and made a single spring arm leather cap too. I believe he made a couple. I made both a long and short arm.

Easy to make if you have the original quivers to work with. Start with a double spring arm leather cap...

1 - Cut off the lower spring arm
2 - Remove the 3 screws on the arrow gripper bracket and toss it in your box of quiver parts
3 - Replace that with screw on bracket from the normal 4-Arrow screw on quiver
4 - Good idea to use a new 4-Arrow gripper while the quiver is apart

I also cut a slot to the screw hole and ground off the two spikes so the lower bracket can easily slide on without removing the screw from the bushing. I carry an extra screw in case one gets away from me in the dark... A screw with a wing nut head is easier to remove, but not a standard Bear product.

This underbelly side shows you everything that was done including the ground off spikes. This one has had some use, it was like new when I made it. Lots of other ways to do something similar.

In reality, what you have is the leather cap version of the 4-Arrow green quiver that many of us have used on the first year Bear Takedown risers.

 

[Wade Phillips]

Forgot to mention, some guys are using the tape on Bear Quiver and using heavy rubber to hold the quiver.

You could do the same as above but for the lower bracket, use a tape on lower bracket and use rubber to hold it in place.

I think Trap wraps a long rubber piece around the tape on bracket and Brunges uses a several heavy rubber coils and rolls them back to remove the quiver.

Hopefully these other guys will post photos of the methods they have come up with that work well for them. Actually I like the rubber idea, just never tried it. The rubber sure beats tape...

I believe any of these methods could be tweaked to be an improvement on the standard double spring arm looseness that always seems to eventually creep up when using that quiver.

[d. ward]

I'am with you guy's on that one I got no idea eather.Maybe to lighten the weight of the quiver a bit ? lol.He might have had some other gripper on it once ? I don't know but I do know this thats about one of the coolest bow and quiver set ups I've seen in a while thank you Bill for the pic.I just love that set up right there.Skinned out Bear bow quiver and a compass.....lets go hunting.Thanks again Bill thats cool bd

[Wade Phillips]

Doc -

After the production Razorhead was introduced in 1956, the old scabbard quivers did not have enough clearance to accommodate the 1-1/8" width both ways when the insert was used...

The insert pushed into the leather scabbard, so as you say, the scabbard was skinned to accommodate the Razorhead Insert width. Fred even recommended removing the leather in his letter he sent in 1955 with the experimental Razorheads (Pinned Bears)...

 

[Grant Young]

Thanks Wade. I had been meaning to figure out my options with that set-up. I've seen some of the modified tape on quivers and for that bow (Saxon) that would be a good option as well. I love the leather tops and use a long arm on a Super Kodiak when I'm deer hunting locally and don't feel like I need as many arrows. I should be like Bowdoc- he occasionally goes bear hunting with one arrow, LOL.    Grant