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Author Topic: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??  (Read 3242 times)

Offline Sean B

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The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« on: January 16, 2015, 10:47:00 PM »
Did the very first Bowhunters Kits have Puma knives instead of the Western 648?  I've heard somewhere that the fist kits that Fred put together '50's for friends but didn't sell came with a Puma knife.  Can any one confirm that? I also have a buddy who is insistent that they were.
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Offline Blackhawk

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2015, 10:51:00 AM »
The Puma was the Hunter's Pal.

Below is something from Bear collector Wade Phillis which addresses the kit:


"Fred Bear was no different than other bowmen as the knife he carried changed over time. Before Bear's well known Bowhunter's Kit, first appeared in the Bear Catalog in 1957, with its Western 648, Fred used other brands of knives. Fred's earlier knives included the famous Marbles knives which were made in Michigan since the late 1800s. Even after introduction of the Bowhutner's Kit, it is well documented that Fred replaced the Western 648 in his Bowhunter's Kit sheath with a Puma Hunter's Pal, which he used during the last several years of his hunting days. "

Here are 3 of Fred's favorites:

1) - Marbles Woodcraft, stag handle, 1914-1915
2) - Puma Hunter's Pal, stag handle
3) - Western 648 - bone handle"
Lon Scott

Online Ray Lyon

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 06:05:00 AM »
What is the dimension of the blade portion of the sheath on the kit?
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Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2015, 07:15:00 AM »
Lon,

We need to clarify your above post, specifically the text which reads…

"Here are 3 of Fred's favorites:"

This text was not part of my original post from 5 years ago, Jan 2010....

The text I wrote immediately above the list of 3 knives was...

"The three knives shown here are not Fred Bear's personal knives but rather knives that I have used of the same brand as knives used by Fred Bear."

Although much indisputable evidence exists that Fred used Marbles knives well before his 1957 catalog introduction of the Bowhunter’s Kit, there is no evidence that I am aware of that Fred used the Stag Handle Woodcraft model, which I listed and showed in the photograph. Nor is there any evidence that I am aware of that Fred ever used any Model of Marbles Knives that had a Stag Handle. (However, much later, Fred did use a knife with a Stag Handle, the Puma Hunter’s Pal.

The Stag Handle Woodcraft PAT PEND is simply one of my personal favorite vintage collectible Marbles and one that I have used to gut, skin and butcher many animals over the course of many years.  

This is an exact copy of the text I posted in Jan 2010...

"by Wade Phillips

Every bowman has favorite vintage hunting knife. Sometimes he has many favorites. Often this favorite changes as time passes.

Fred Bear was no different than other bowmen as the knife he carried changed over time. Before Bear's well known Bowhunter's Kit, first appeared in the Bear Catalog in 1957, with its Western 648, Fred used other brands of knives. Fred's earlier knives included the famous Marbles knives which were made in Michigan since the late 1800s. Even after introduction of the Bowhutner's Kit, it is well documented that Fred replaced the Western 648 in his Bowhunter's Kit sheath with a Puma Hunter's Pal, which he used during the last several years of his hunting days.

The three knives shown here are not Fred Bear's personal knives but rather knives that I have used of the same brand as knives used by Fred Bear.

1) - Marbles Woodcraft, PAT PEND, stag handle, 1914-1915
2) - Puma Hunter's Pal, stag handle
3) - Western 648 - bone handle

My favorite of the three is the 1914-5 Marbles Woodcraft, at the top of the image. Holds an edge and is easily sharpened. On several occasions after killing a deer or antelope, I have gutted the animal, skinned it and butchered it with this knife without sharpening it at all. After each of these occasions, sharpening took only 3 to 6 strokes on each side using a diamond hone. If I could only own one knife to use for everything, gutting, skinning, butchering, this would be the one.

Next favorite is the Puma Hunter's Pal, in the center. Holds a great edge but is a little harder to sharpen than the Marbles. The rougher stag handle provides a better grip for bloody hands. Have also used this knife on a few occasions to gut, skin and butcher an animal without sharpening it. With the blade sharpened down like this one, it fits in the sheath of a 1957 Bowhunter's Kit. You may have to bend the aluminum scabbard inside, a little to get the blade to fit easily.

Not a favorite at all, is the Western 648, at the bottom of the image. The standard knife in the 1957 Bowhunter's Kit. Although I've found it works well for notching a paper tag after the kill, the softer steel quickly provides a disappointingly dull cutting edge."
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

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Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2015, 07:29:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sean B:
Did the very first Bowhunters Kits have Puma knives instead of the Western 648?  I've heard somewhere that the fist kits that Fred put together '50's for friends but didn't sell came with a Puma knife.  Can any one confirm that? I also have a buddy who is insistent that they were.
Sean B - In answer to your specific question that started this thread...

The first Bowhunter's Kit advertised in a Bear Catalog was the 1957 model. The knife used in that kit was the Western 648.

This fact is well documented in the Bear Catalogs and photographs of the era.

Later, Fred replaced the 648 in his personal Bowhunter's Kit that he carried, with a Puma Hunter's Pal, which at the time was a very high quality knife with much harder steel than the 648. The Puma would hold an edge much longer than the 648.

There is no evidence that I am aware of that Bear ever advertised or sold the Bowhunter's Kit with a Puma Hunter's Pal.  

Regarding the Pre-1957 Kits that Fred made, they did not have the Puma Hunter's Pal.

I would suggest that your buddy who is insistent that the Pre-1957 Kits contained a Puma Hunter's Pal, simply use this thread to offer the archery collecting world whatever physical evidence (photographs of Fred, advertisements, personal letters, etc.) that he posses to substantiate his claim.

I'm certain that I am not the only life long Bear Archery Collector who will be waiting to be enlightened by your buddy.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2015, 08:01:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Lyon:
What is the dimension of the blade portion of the sheath on the kit?
Ray -

The blade portion of all the 1957 Bowhunter's Kits that have all measure 5.10".

The actual blade length of an unused 648 with original factory sharpened edge, that is original to one of the kits that I have in unused condition, is 4.36".

Likely the 648 blade length varied slightly over time. Logically we can assume that anyone with an ounce of safety consciousness would design a sheath to be slightly longer than the knife blade.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Online Ray Lyon

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 11:45:00 AM »
Thanks Wade, do you have the width by chance? If I track one down, I'm wondering what knife would fit the sheath in place of the 648 (I haven't decided what that would be yet)?
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Offline Blackhawk

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 02:36:00 PM »
Thanks Wade for your post and clarification...and great info.

Sorry for giving you credit for something you did not intend.  (I think I can now qualify for a job at the New York Times.)

I know these kits in complete and nice shape are selling for a high dollar.  I picked up a nice one a couple years ago at a 3-D shoot for $100, but see them priced today in the $2-$300 range.
Lon Scott

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 03:35:00 PM »
Lon -

Just a few years ago at Compton, I saw three Bowhunter's Kits that were for sale. Price range was $350 to $450.

At that shoot, I had brought an extra with me for trade that was in better condition than any of the three I saw for sale. Throughout the shoot, I received several offers for up to $300 for mine. On the last day, I ended up trading it off.

Price is generally greatly influenced by the Condition of the Bowhunter's Kit. One in mint condition probably has the interest of everyone who doesn't own one, as well as many who already have one that is in lesser condition. Supply and demand at the time of the sale is always the determining factor.
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Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 03:52:00 PM »
Ray -

The width of the sheath is tapered slightly so there is no single width measurement that will help you find a knife to fit. I'll try to give you the inside width of the inner sheath as close as I can...

.75" down, width is .92"
2.5" down, width is .77"
3.5" down, width is .64"

Remember the early sheaths have an aluminum inter sheath. This aluminum can be bent a bit to accommodate a different shape blade.

I would recommend finding a 1960s Hunter's Pal. If it doesn't fit at first, try bending the aluminum inter sheath. If that still doesn't get it to fit, you can go to my plan B, and carefully take a little steel off the widest width of the blade.

With a little Bowhunter ingenuity, you can probably get any knife to fit that is really close.
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Online Ray Lyon

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 09:30:00 PM »
Thanks again Wade.
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Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2015, 10:36:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blackhawk:
...

... I know these kits in complete and nice shape are selling for a high dollar.  I picked up a nice one a couple years ago at a 3-D shoot for $100, but see them priced today in the $2-$300 range.
Lon -

Thought you might be interested in this.

Just happened to check and found some surprising (to me) listings for the standard Bear Bowhunter's Kits over the past couple of months…

I see one sold at auction on Nov 14, 2015 for US $510.00.

Another is listed on Buy It Now for $785.00 + $8.75 postage.

And another auction that ends January 26, 2015, as of now has 42 bids and is currently up to $920.00 + $6.95 postage.

The one you picked up at the 3-D shoot a couple of years ago for $100 purchase is a real bargain by these standards...
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"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Blackhawk

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2015, 12:47:00 PM »
Holy Cow!  

The kit that I got was from an old timer who had it on his table, and I asked how much.  When he said, make me an offer, I blurted out, "a hundred dollars".  When he said "sold" with a smile, I felt I had just got screwed.  

Ever since, I have been more pleased with the deal.

Could this auction just be some shill bidding going on?  It's hard for me to believe items like this can demand such a legitimate and outrageous price.
Lon Scott

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2015, 01:48:00 PM »
Lon -

Just checked the bids and it looks like two neophyte to the auction process are trying to outbid each other as each is continually raising the other by the minimum bid amount.

Possibly they are also neophytes to collecting vintage archery tackle.

As you suggest, there may be some shill bidding. One never knows if these very high auctions are truly legitimate.

I remember one such auction 10 to 15 years ago, that went for over $1,500.00. The winning bidder called me right after the auction and told me how pleased he was to get the item (which should have been $200 to $300 in my opinion.) He was pleased because it was the last one in the set that he needed to complete the entire series.  

Later, the second high bidder called and told me how disappointed he was that he did not bid more.

They were both neophytes at the time and had far more money than experience or knowledge about values.

I don't remember who the seller was, but likely he was as surprised as most of us more experienced collectors.
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"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Sean B

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2015, 06:04:00 PM »
Thanks for the responses. As it turns out, there was a miscommunication between my buddy and I.  anyway, It was a later photo of Fred that he was referring to.

I picked one up at a yard sale for around $50.  Bowdoc looked at it on a bear hunt we went on and he figures it to be from about '63. I get lucky once in awhile.....I also picked up a compass Kodiak (walnut) in an antiques store for $20!!
Sean
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Offline Blackhawk

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2015, 07:18:00 PM »
At such high prices we hear about, we may be seeing more and more aftermarket kits like this:

 

 

Sorry, but I do not have ordering info on this kit, but it's quality at a fair price.
Lon Scott

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2015, 08:51:00 AM »
Lon -

These are a few more aftermarket attempts that I have acquired over the years. Each was made by a different "leatherworker"...

     

I have never seen an aftermarket that duplicates the quality of the sheath of an original Fred Bear Bowhunter's Kit with it's thin pliable leather outer sheath, contoured shape, it's closely spaced fine stitching, and original Bear Logo stamping. Not to mention it's original paper box with clear cover...

Simply put, there is nothing like an original...

     

If we see any more aftermarket attempts in the future, hopefully they will more closely resemble the originals.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Horney Toad

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2015, 01:14:00 PM »
Nothing like an original, still those Puma knives are looking pretty nice!

Offline johnnyrazorhead

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2015, 07:55:00 PM »
Love the old Fred Bear Bowhunters Kits.One of the coolest Bear Archery collectibles in my opinion.Thought I would add a few pics of a very early set I have.Unfortunately I cannot verify if this,or any other 648 Western knife is the original knife that came with the kit.This set belonged to a former Bear Archery employee and friend of Fred's that started working at Bear in 1951.I assume Fred gave this kit to his employee/friend to use and it does appear to be used.Interesting to see the difference in the knife holder section on this early set compared to the first kits offered to the public in 1957.Leather goes straight across inline with the file pouch and there is no snap to secure the knife in the sheath.Also,on the backside,the leather pouch for accessories is much taller than on the production sets.Still has the running bear logo stamped onto the belt loop.Wish I could verify what knife came with the set originally but too many years,and people have passed to know for sure.Thought you might enjoy seeing this to go along with the thread.
 

 

 

 

Offline zepnut

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Re: The EARLIEST Bear Bowhunters Kits??
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2015, 08:27:00 AM »
Pretty neat John

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