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Author Topic: New Bear Archery Book  (Read 6133 times)

Online Larry m

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2016, 02:42:00 PM »
Critiquing, correction and input is only going to make your publication all the better!

I've printed out your pasted image above and plan on making some red notations as reference. I would suspect there will be some more in the future as the word on your book gets around.

Future editions could be updated and enhanced which would make a more positive reference guide!

No apologies required or confusion on my part and welcome the updates.....

Offline Ardent Archer

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2016, 02:55:00 PM »
Thanks Larry.  Share any glaring mistakes. I have a file with a bunch of other issues incase I ever do another edition. Private messages would be great!

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2016, 02:12:00 PM »
Jorge -

Thanks for giving us a page of corrections to add to the book.

If you start a second page, here are some additional corrections/changes to consider....

Page 74 the only photograph is labeled "A 1960 Kodiak Deluxe". The photograph is actually a 1960 Kodiak Special Deluxe.

Page 75 the photo in the center of the page, from the 1960 Bear Archery Catalog, shows a Kodiak Special Deluxe to the left and on the right, a bow built on the Kodiak form (not the Kodiak Deluxe form), but with clear glass and no crescent inset of zebrawood (this is an actual photograph, not an illustration as I have one one of these bows). There is no mention of identifying either bow in the text.    

Page 76 First paragraph - Do you have any documentation from the era to support the text regarding the "2" or "22" stamping? I have owned numerous Bear bows with one or more "2" stamped on them and never noticed any blemish or serious defect on any of the bows.

Page 76 Second paragraph - HA (56") IA (60") and LA (64") is the serial numbering sequence that started in 1959 and carried over well into the 1960 production before the numbering sequence was changed.

Page 218 top photograph incorrectly labeled 1958 Kodiak Special. This is actually a 1957 Kodiak Special.

Page 219 top photograph is incorrectly labeled 1959-1960 Kodiak Special - this bow is actually a 1959 Kodiak Special.

The 1960 Bear Catalog page 6 Kodiak Special actually shows a 1959 Kodiak Special, the 1960 Kodiak Special is not shown. It is easy for people who do not collect these bows to be confused.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2016, 02:17:00 PM »
Jorge -

Also have a question about the classifications mentioned in the book, e.g.,

Type I
Type II
Type III

What specific characteristic(s) does a bow have to exhibit before it is eligible to have a separate classification as a different "Type"?
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Ardent Archer

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2016, 02:40:00 PM »
Wade,

Thanks for these helpful suggestions to add to my early Errata. I will add them for a "version 2" Errata. Eventually I will post these on a website being constructed for me by the publisher and I will post the URL for interested parties to access things like a revised Errata. I assume more suggestions will come from others knowledgable parties. In fact I already have some.

Many of them were already known but not included in the book due to size limitations. Covering 40 bow models over a 66 year timeline set the bar pretty high (maybe too high).

As you might expect, some of the information in the book (description of "2" or "22" stamping, Type I, Type II, Type III designations) is based on statments made by others at shoots, forum posts, etc. For example, bow "Type" designations came from several sources to include: Jim Raine (doglegs discussion on Pirates of Archery), Dan Worden (Mag. risers) and Tom Lester (Kodiak Hunter types in his matrix), discussions with Al Reader (only in my head). It may take me awhile to track those down.

I'll make sure to get back to you on the sources when I can.  Working 40 hours/wk. is getting in the way.

Thank You for these!

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2016, 03:04:00 PM »
Jorge -

Page 31 Exotic Woods, first paragraph text states "In 1959, Fred Bear began using exotic woods in his bows."

Actually use of Exotic Woods started the previous model year in 1958 with the 1958 Kodiak Special I-Beam Riser which had a dark Rosewood center lamination. The 1958 Catalog shows what I refer to as a 1957 Kodiak Special "Amalgamated" Sight Window, which is much different than the bow sight window that everyone knows as a 1958 Kodiak Special.

Below is a 2009 image from my efforts to create an identification guide for Kodiak Specials on this forum...

       
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2016, 03:20:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ardent Archer:
Wade,
...
As you might expect, some of the information in the book (description of "2" or "22" stamping, Type I, Type II, Type III designations) is based on statements made by others at shoots, forum posts, etc. For example, bow "Type" designations came from several sources to include: Jim Raine (doglegs discussion on Pirates of Archery), Dan Worden (Mag. risers) and Tom Lester (Kodiak Hunter types in his matrix), discussions with Al Reader (only in my head). It may take me awhile to track those down.
 
Jorge -

I am only interested in documentation from Bear Archery regarding the "2" stamping, as I have never found any nor heard of any actual documentation from Bear regarding stamping on bows. I have heard things first hand from people who actually stamped some of these bows, which should be the most believable, but never 100 percent reliable 100 percent of the time especially if 30 or 40 or 50 or more years pasted from the time of the event to me asking them to recall it. Some of the best human sources of information have also proven to be the most incorrect when the information is compared to actual artifacts that are known to exist.

Don't really want you to go to the trouble of re-finding these sources unless they are actual Bear documents, which have occasionally also proven to be incorrect, as we know well.

Regarding the Type I etc, was guessing you had a set of rules (similar to Al's rules) that you used to determine what you would give a different "Type" designation.

If there is no such set of criteria for "Type", it should be established so everyone knows what might constitute a different "Type".
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Ardent Archer

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2016, 07:21:00 PM »
STAMPS:

On stamps, I never found any actual documentation direct from Bear Archery either, whether it be stamps or serial number files.  I vaguely recalled some conversations with others about them but cannot recall who.  

Just for kicks I posted what I could find here…There was one more site that I forgot to copy the URL for and cannot find now but someone posted: “There are probably as many explanations for the stamps are there are bows”  

Here are some quotes and their origin:

1) “Contrary to recent information I've heard, and according to the people who actually wrote the serial numbers at the Grayling plant, many of these defective bows were metal stamped on the riser.  A "2" stamp indicated a factory second or blemish and a "22" stamp indicated a more serious defect.”  - Matt Dickerson

 http://www.stickbow.com/features/collecting/bearkodiaks/

2) “I have talked to a couple of the most respected and published Bear experts and they say there is no 100% documented proven or corroborated backed up story as to what the 22 stamp and the star stamp and the X stamp mean. It is commonly accepted that the 22 and star stamp means factory refinished and the X stamp means overstock discounted clearance with no warranty sale.” - Posted by AALLFAB (Jim)

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=14;t=004303

3) “as I recall the 22 stamp means the bow was sent back to the factory for repair and so stamped when returned”  - Posted by damascusdave

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=14;t=006716

4)  “The Bear salesman carried a stamping too in his kit. The stars are typically discounted bows and year end clearance.  The '2's you see on some bows are cosmetic blemishes or defects; I have bows with as many as three '2's. But the blemish or defect is not easy to determine, as it is cosmetic.” -Bjorn

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=006943

BOW TYPE:

I will never know who may have started designating bow “Types” but it was likely a collector or maybe a  Bear Archery (or other company) factory employee.   I always believed that “Type” intended to “separate multiple configurations of a bow model  within or among years.”  …I think that is your definition right there.    Who designated the TypeI and Type II Bear TD risers? A collector?

1) Some collectors place significance on the year of the manufacture of the take-down relative to the value of the bow. Actually, more than year, the collector should be referring to Type. The first models made in 1969/1970, up through serial number 2000, are referred to as Type I’s. Models made in 1971 and later are correctly referred to as Type II’s, due to a change in the riser style.

 http://www.stickbow.com/stickbow/collector/beararchery/

2) The only ones they had problems with were the "Type 1" Kodiak Magnums. If you scroll back up and look at the catalog picture Jett provided you can see the the back side "dogleg" is higher than the belly side ending lamination. There basically was not enough "meat" to the riser left to handle the stress in this configuration and they "blew up".

Bear then modified the design and went to the "Type II". This Type II is shown in the photo provided by CZenner, and is the third from the left in the picture. You can see the laminations are now even at the doglegs (from belly to back). This provided more strength. While they had less issues with this design, I guess they still had some issues and decided to alter go to the final design, the "Type III" which is shown to the right in the same photo. Here you can see how little dogleg there is in the final design.  - Jim Raine

 http://piratesofarchery.net/bb/viewtopic.php?p=132188

3) ‘69 Kodiak Hunter (3 types), ‘69 Kodiak Magnum (3 types), ‘63 Dogleg Kodiak Magnum (3 types), ’64 Kodiak Magnum (Type I)  described in “Grayling Bows by Bear” (hardcopy spreadsheet handed to me by Al Reader) - by Tom Lester,

4) “Magnesium risers. I didn't see any mention of type I and type II. Early and reinforced risers. Page 329 yellow and green are T-II's see the additional angled rib at the latch?” - Dan Worden (Mag. riser Type I and Type IIs, personal communication).

5) Personal discussions with Al Reader (only in my very limited brain).

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2016, 08:48:00 PM »
Jorge -

Thanks so much for the lengthy explanation about the stampings.

Guess the long and short of it is nobody seems to know anyone with any documentation from Bear stating anything about the different stampings.


Regarding the designation "Type".

Apparently you agree that there is no written criteria for what difference in a bow might make is eligible for a different "Type" designation.

I think it would be wise for interested Bear collectors to have a discussion and come to a consensus on a definition of Type, as there are likely additional bows with different characteristics that should be recognized as having those differences.

As collectors, many of us like to know what variations exist so we know to be looking for them in our searches.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Ardent Archer

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2016, 08:46:00 AM »
Good morning Wade et al.,

Nice photo of Kodiak Specials!! Thanks for posting. I reviewed some of the "donated" photos others had sent me for the book and am confirming that all the ones you noted came to me already mis-labeled. Dang, I should have double checked each one closely. Glad you caught those Wade! Others will be thankful too.

I agree that we should set a definition for bow “Type” as I've never seen a "handbook" per se. In my draft revised definition:  "A designation assigned to a bow model intended to recognize multiple (unique) configurations of a bow model within or among years”, I must admit to feeling uncomfortable with including "among" in that definition but I think we may be stuck with it now.  Considering the 1969-70 wood Fred Bear Takedown riser (Type I) and the 1971-74 wood Fred Bear Takedown riser (Type II) are already well established in the collector community. Any thoughts on improving this draft?

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2016, 11:01:00 PM »
Jorge -

Want to point out the discolored glass of the 1955 Kodiak Special and the notation to such on the image. A photograph that has been on this website since 2009.    

     
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2016, 08:27:00 AM »
Jorge -

The notation on the 1960 & 1959 regarding the possibility that aged white glass can appear cream is true for many Bear bows with white glass.

Also not on notation is the fact that there are some examples of these bows with all white glass. I have owned one and seen four others that come to mind. Haven't really looked for examples of this glass color variation for some time.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline Ardent Archer

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2016, 08:31:00 AM »
Wade, you did a great job with all of your bow model identification series. Very effective way to present the differecnes. These photos would make a great ID handbook. It would likely outsell mine!

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2016, 06:34:00 PM »
Jorge -

Yes, I have been toying around with several ideas like you suggest but after writing 9 books since retiring in 2001, I have tried to catch up with some other things the past 5 years or so.

I have three other books and two handbooks started but have not finished them. One is all but ready to take to the printers. Learned from my first book, to never tell anyone what I am working on or when it will be done as you will spend all of your time answering questions about when it can be ordered... as one of my best teachers in life often said, "a word to the wise is sufficient".
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline warpedarrow

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2016, 09:20:00 AM »
Jorge,  my copy was lost in the mail so I complained and Amazon sent me a replacement.  The post office found the first one, so now I have two.  I'm not sure what I will do as I really did not like talking to the customer service rep in India.  I may give the extra to the local library.

Wade, that is a very nice '58 KS, which happens to be a year that is missing in my collection.  If you hear of any clean ones needing a home please send me a p.m.
Brad Lehmann

Online Dennis Allman

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2016, 10:57:00 AM »
I went to Amazon, typed in the full title and the author`s full name;  I got "Your search did not match any products". I was in the book section.

Anyone have any help with this? I would like to purchase, if possible.

Offline warpedarrow

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2016, 11:09:00 AM »
I used the link in the last post on page one to get there.  It just worked about a minute ago for me.
Brad Lehmann

Offline Ardent Archer

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2016, 06:17:00 PM »
Brad, Maybe you can sell the extra copy on **** or at the next shoot you attend?

Dennis I went to both Amazon and Barnes & noble links and they are working.

Offline Wade Phillips

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2016, 11:41:00 AM »
Only extra 58 KS is a 47#, 62", non-factory camo that Bjorn had before it came to the Arsenal. It has a thin splinter of glass missing on lower limb. I wanted to take a close look at it because it was camo, but turned out not to be a factory camo job. Probably not a candidate for refinish back to mint original.
"Real Sportsmanship is Fair Play" - Art Young

"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Offline warpedarrow

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Re: New Bear Archery Book
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2016, 10:55:00 AM »
Wade,  that sounds like a challenge to me.  I have a 1960 to finish up and a 1962 Kodiak next in line along with a piano refinish and a quarter mile of fence line to cut the brush out of, so I am a little short on things to do. I'll be in touch.
Brad Lehmann

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