Got a Kodiak Deluxe to go with my Kodiak Special Deluxe

[2ndTimeShooter]

Hello Everyone,
In a couple of previous topics I told about getting a 36#, 64" Kodiak Special Deluxe that was in near perfect condition, even though it was stamped 22. I've been shooting it and loving it.

Today I got a 64", 50# Kodiak Deluxe on the auction site. From the pics it also looks like it's in great condition, and is also stamped 22. And I plan to shoot it.

I have a 45# 60" 2014 Super Kodiak which was my first bow a few months ago, when I resumed archery after not shooting for 45 years. It's great but was too heavy for me to shoot much. I realized I needed a practice bow and wanted one in 30#s or so. I was looking for a new Samick or PSE but the lowest # was 35, so I started looking at vintage bows and found a 29# 1968 (I think) Cub with a zebrawood riser. It works fine but then I wanted something in between it and the 45# Super Kodiak... which really is 50# on a scale at my draw. Then I found the 36# Kodiak Special Deluxe. I liked it so much that I wanted one like it to replace the Super Kodiak. I guess I got lucky because there was one on the auction site and I won it. Last week I also found a 30# 1961, 63" Kodiak Special w/zebrawood riser and am purchasing it, to replace the Cub. Now I'm all set with these great shooting and beautiful bow, in light, medium and heavier weights.

Having the right weight for me is important b/c I have chronic pain from fractured vertebrae, and have to "work out" shooting gradually and build up to the heavier bow. My condition can also change from day to day so having different weights will allow me to shoot more often.

I have to thank all of you who posted info on many vintage bows and on these Kodiaks. Wade, DDave, Brad and many others have been most helpful, either directly to me or for sharing info with everyone. I have learned so much even though it's just a little. Without all these Tradgang pages I never would have known about all the vintage bow models, which ones shot well, what they looked like, and so on. Concerning the KD I just got, the posts on that showed bows that were too beautiful to believe and I couldn't wait to get one. Now I have one (or will soon)... and one is enough. I'm not a collector, unless 3 bows is considered a collection. Anyway, many many thanks.

And in case any of you were bidding on this same bow and lost, I'm sorry for you... better luck next time. I have a secret to how I won the bid. First, I was willing to pay a lot to get this bow, so I set a very high max bid amount. Second, I used an automated sniping service that places the bid(s) in the last few seconds. There's no way to beat it by bidding on your computer. I saw a few people kept bidding hours, minutes and seconds up to the end of the auction. That's no way to win an auction. I'm new to online auctions but I've won 2 out of 3, and those 2 were the ones I really wanted to win. The only one I lost was b/c I didn't bid high enough, b/c I wasn't sure I wanted it. If I can say the name of the service I used I will, but I'm not sure if it's allowed. I'm saying all this b/c at least for now, I'm hanging up my bow hunting sights. I got 3 great bows and I'm delighted and satisfied.

BTW, the 22 stamp is said to be due to being returned to refinishing, but I've also been told it was used by Bear sales reps to mark last year's bows in stores, so they would have to be discounted to sell and make room for next year's models. If this is true then the 22 stamp has nothing to do with the bow being defective.

[2ndTimeShooter]

PS I forgot to thank Magonboat also.

[warpedarrow]

I bumped your bid an hour from the end.  You never know.  I have accidentally bought as many bows as I have on purpose.

I think that the Bear bug bit you.  There is no cure but symptoms can be kept in check with an occasional bow purchase.  Maybe by the time this one shows up you will learn to post pictures.      Maybe not.

[damascusdave]

The fact is you are the toughest bidder to bid against on ****, someone who wants a particular bow and is only buying that one...that is one big reason we still see the odd bow selling for what many of us consider very high prices...it also proves that a bow is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it at that particular time...that is one reason I quit buying bows on ****...my Kodiak Deluxe was never even advertised for sale

DDave

[imbowhunt10]

I was the next to the last bidder on your 50# Kodiak Deluxe. I have a very nice original 59 MSW Kodiak in the same poundage that I am looking to trade for a Kodiak Deluxe. It came from Al Reader's collection, if you or someone may be interested.

[2ndTimeShooter]

Thanks all for the replies. I just saw them but did not get any notices that there were any.

I had a feeling people from this site were bidding. Brad and DDave, I don't feel sorry for you b/c you already have one or a number of Kodiak Deluxes. You gotta leave one at least for someone who doesn't have one.

Yes, the Bear bug bit me but this time it was the vintage Bear bug. My first (45 years ago) Bear was new (at the time), my 2nd was 2 years old. Now I have sworn off new bows and gone completely into the deep end of vintage. You guys are partly to blame! for sharing so much info and showing us your beautiful bows. But I accept responsibility for my addition. The only problem is I don't want to get rid of it. Hopefully I will be satisfied with what I have now for a long time... until the bug emerges again from a dormant state. Now my focus is on practicing, improving my shooting, and enjoying it. Isn't that the point, to shoot? Bows are fascinating and beautiful and fun to learn about and buy and sell or trade or restore, but without shooting what's the point?

DDave, on this bow I guess I was a tough bidder. It was exactly what I wanted, and I knew I might not find another like it for a long time. In terms of the price, it is still cheaper than a new bow of comparable quality... if there is such a thing. I paid $400 for my 2014 super Kodiak, and that was a good deal compared to buying a new one. I will sell that bow to help cover the cost of the KD, so the cost of the KD will only be a bit over $100 more than I already spent. If that makes sense. To me it's a good deal even if from a collector's point of view the KD cost too much. But don't worry, I won't be bidding like that against any of you for at least a while!
The Kodiak Special I got was not a bid, just a reply to an add on another forum's classified. The Cub and the Kodiak Special Deluxe were also not bids in an auction, they were "Buy Now" and I just happened to see them and buy them before anyone else did. The Kodiak Hunter (which I forgot to mention above) was a bid, but like Brad I had forgotten I bid on it until I won it. I don't like it very much and have put it up for sale already. It's just too big and clunky for me.

Imbowhunt10, sorry you lost the bidding, hope you find what you are looking for. Just for fun after the auction, I checked that other forum's classifieds - as I had been doing several times a day - to see what was new. I saw what must be your wanted ad and I thought, "Uh oh, he must be one of the guys who lost the bid I won." If I ever see another KD I would be glad to let you know about it, but I don't know how to reach you. Or anyone, except for posting here.

Brad, I will master photobucket some day but I'm very busy just now with some major projects on my property. I did learn how to get photos off my phone so if you want me to send any I would be glad to to so by email. Just don't know how to do that here. Is it "legal" to post an email address on this forum? Can you send me an email through the administrators or something? I would love to share some more photos of the KSD and of the others when I get them. Also photos of some great custom arrows I got for the KSD and the KD from Warpath Archery, a native American who makes arrows, strings, quivers, traditional native American bows, obsidian pointed arrows, obsidian knives, and other things. His arrows are fantastic and you can get any customization you want.

Finally, for now, I also want to share what I made to carry and store most of my arrows and archery tools and parephernalia. I use it to carry everything from my home to where I shoot, which is just about 50 yards away. It's just a 5 gallon plastic bucket with a non-slip base. In the bottom I put a 10" clay pot dish to stabilize it. On top of that, a canvas style parachute bag made for organizing tools. It has six compartments. A plastic organizer would work better but I like the look and feel of the bag, it's more like a quiver. Over the bucket is a matching (same company) tool organizer, with dozens of pockets that holds gloves, arm guard, glues, wax, extra strings, bow stringer, bow square, extra (interchangeable) points, scissors, knife, nocks, extra parts like arrow rest and strike plate, ... you get the idea, it is my mini archery shop and short range huge quiver. Over the top of the bucket I put 3 very small bungee cords, which form six sections that correspond to the six pockets in the parachute bag. This keeps six kinds of arrows in their own little section. The metal bucket handle didn't work due to the length of the arrows, so I took it off and put on a canvas strap I wasn't using, from a canvas bag... and it almost matches the canvas tool organizer. That's it! Works great for short hauls. I know people use buckets and even buckets with plastic organizers in the bottom, but this is way cooler than that. It's like a quiver on steroids. of course I also have a real quiver if I want to go further from the house.

Love to hear from you or others again!
Shandor

[warpedarrow]

You can email someone by clicking on their handle and bringing up their profile.  My email is:  [email protected] if anyone wants to send me pictures of Deluxes or '59 MSW Kodiaks.  I have only two Deluxes that are family.  The rest of them are just decorations on the wall.

[mangonboat]

Shandor , I like the idea of a 5 gallon bucket and canvas tool bag. I have one for my fishing gear in my  kayak and it never occurred to me to put arrows in it.

[2ndTimeShooter]

Hey, thanks Brad... that's simple to get the email, and there is yours. I'll take some more pics and send some to you, of the KSD I have, and the KD and KS I'm getting. I know you saw the pics of the KD on the auction site, but they were not very good pics... seems they often are not. Nowhere near the quality of some of the pics I've seen on this forum. My Samsung Galaxy Note Edge takes great pics, but I'm wondering if there is some best way to photograph bows so they look their best. Lighting? Background? Waxing?

Mangonboat, sorry I misspelled your handle. I cut a finger through the nail and it's hard to type without making typos. Glad you like the bucket idea. I'll send you some pics also so you can see the inner details.

Here's another idea. I was using one compressed bale of straw as my target, just sitting on the ground on a hill. The rising hill served as sort of a backstop. Compressed straw is very dense. An 18" x 25" x 8" bale weighs 50 lbs. - same as a full size bale. I had to move it due to some work we're doing, and in the new position the backstop is our neighbors property. So I had to make the target bigger or put in a real backstop. With help from a friend, I got 5 more bales (about $10 each) and we laid them out flat on a pallet on the ground, 3 bales side by side in one row, and 3 in the second row, with the tall axis vertical. Then we compressed them together with a tie down ratchet strap, and then tied them together and to the pallet. Then we raised the pallet and braced it from behind with another pallet. Then we tied the bales' straps to the pallet from behind, so we didn't need the strings in front holding them on. There were a few gaps b/c they are not square, so we packed as much loose straw in them as we could. It works great and is a huge target/backstop all in one, doesn't need protection from weather, is gentle on arrows and only cost about $60 for the bales... I already had the pallets and baling twine. For a target, I just hung a string vertically in the center (advice from Jeff Kavanagh's videos for centering the bow arm and shot), and put one little red foam ball on a pin in the middle. That's it, very simple. I also plan to put a yardarm attached to the pallet and sticking up above the bales, to attach a string for swinging targets.

OK, one last thing. Any suggestions for brace height for the 64" Kodiak Special Deluxe or Kodiak Deluxe? Someone said that the catalog recommended 6.75 to 7.5", but I've read that for 64" bows it should be over 8". One guy who shoots his 64" KSD uses 8.5" and he says it shoots better than any other bow he has or has had (100s) although now he only has 5, including a Martin Mamba. I'm using 8" now but since I don't have the right spine arrows yet it's hard to tell.

[warpedarrow]

I can't think of a bow that I shoot with less than 8" brace height.  Maybe it is just me but I can't seem to quiet them down at lower brace height.  I am pretty blind in my right eye and therefore am a terrible shot so I am not looking for speed.  Speed just means that I miss faster.

[2ndTimeShooter]

Sorry about your right eye, Brad, but "Speed just means I miss faster" is pretty funny. I suppose you're right handed. I read in one of these forums that someone with a similar problem shot a left handed bow. Of course that could be even harder. I also know someone who has a similar problem who shoots guns, he had special glasses made just for shooting that corrected for his right eye at long distance only. He started winning competitions after that.

[warpedarrow]

My problem is many many floaters in the eye.  I can shoot a scoped rifle o.k. but bows and shotguns are a bit of a problem.  It never fails that when I want to shoot a floater will block my vision.  I need to learn how to aim with my left eye.  I suppose that it could be done similar to gap aiming.

[2ndTimeShooter]

There are eye drops that reduce floaters. Go to Life Extension (a supplement company) and look for their eye drops. They don't say everything they can do but if you do a search on the active ingredient you'll find out more. Vit. C may also help. The Bates method of vision training can also help you learn to use your left eye.

Got the Kodiak Deluxe!!! It's awesome. I'll post more about it soon.

[2ndTimeShooter]

PS - did I say I'm a retired naturopathic doctor?

[2ndTimeShooter]

OK here's a synopsis of the Kodiak Deluxe: it's beautiful and awesome. After cleaning there are almost no flaws. 2 or 3 small vertical stress cracks in the limbs, a fain trace of mottled clouding here and there, almost unnoticeable. One little area of small scratches in circles on one limb, about 1/8th inch x 3/8th inch area. There's a round sticker that says "Viking Sports S.F." on the lower limb, that seems to have been varnished over with feathering of the varnish on the edges. Anyone know how to get that off? Other than that it's perfect. It needs a new feather rest and strike plate, when that's done I'll take some pics and send them to some of you, then if you want you can post them here.

The bow came in what looks like the original sock, a mustard-yellow canvas bag with a leather bottom and yellow fleece lining.

I put the string from my Kodiak Super Deluxe on it last night and shot a dozen arrows. Unfortunately I didn't have time to shoot more yet... various projects and a lab with a benign but nasty tumor in his face takes a lot of time and care. Anyway it is awesome to shoot. Feels very powerful. Arrow speed is really fast. I can't measure it but wow do they zip out of that bow. It's rated 50#, at my draw it measures 52# and compared to my 2014 60" super Kodiak which measures 50# at my draw, the arrows seem to go much faster and penetrate the straw bale deeper. It's also harder to string... being longer doesn't help. My back was not so good yesterday so I had a friend slip the string on while I pulled up on the bow. Does anyone know of any clever way to get a string on a longer, heavier bow? I may need help on that as some days I won't be able to do it, even if I can draw it when strung. It's the reaching with one hand while pulling up with the other that's the problem.

One other little thing... the seller contacted me with a notice of another bow from the same source he's going to sell. I wasn't interested in the bow but he said they both came from the deceased husband of his neighbor. His is selling them for the widow as a neighborly act. I don't think he knows anything about bows but he sells other stuff on the auction site. I asked him if it was possible to find out from the widow if she knew whether or not her husband bought the bow new, and whether he bought it at a discount, or had to return it to the factor for refinishing. If he can get that info it may shed light on the mystery of the 22 stamp. Almost everyone says it means the bow was sent back for refinishing, and that therefore the bow is flawed, and some say it should not be shot. If it was flawed and refinished, I don't think it is still flawed and I obviously think it can be shot. But I'm not so sure that's what it means, and I haven't seen any evidence of that (although that doesn't mean much b/c I haven't seen much of anything!). Anyway, another theory is that Bear sales reps/distributor agents marked bows in stores as last year's model, to get them to put them on sale to make room for next year's models. If I hear back that he bought it new (and perhaps at a discount) and that he never returned it to the factory, we will have to rethink what the 22 stamp means... and a lot of bows might start being shot. It's very possible at least that he did buy it new... the sticker says "S.F." and the seller who got it from his neighbor is based in a suburb of S.F.

[warpedarrow]

My thoughts on the Deluxes:

Many of the bows delaminated, some even prior to being sold new.  The problem was traced to the adhesive being used at the time.  It just was not up to the task and apparently there was not a suitable replacement as Bear dropped the clear glass after just one year.  I have looked at the glazing on several Deluxes now and it appears to me, in many instances, that it is not a change in the color of the clear glass but a separation of the glass from the core.   This was very apparent on Wade's painted Deluxe.  I even attempted to inject Loctite into one of the "glazed" areas with a fine needle and syringe to see if the glazing would go away.  It did not take very long for me to realize that a repair such as I was attempting would be difficult and maybe not very satisfactory.  I have also seen small localized areas of the glass clouding.  This does not alarm me.  It appears to be a change in transparency only and doesn't indicate delamination.

Several guys shoot their Deluxes.  I don't because I know that there was an adhesive or improper curing problem in this model.  In my opinion, repeatedly flexing the limbs is testing the integrity of the bond, and may end up with failure and a ruined bow.  There are several other models that I would not string up, the first generation 1963s and any of the aluminum lamination bows of 1949 to mid 1951, for example.

Then there is the issue of stress cracking.  Almost all of the bows from that era developed stress cracks in the glass.  I have been fortunate enough to buy a few bows that are devoid of stress cracks.  My guess is that the one without stress cracks were bought and used very little rather than being a special bow with materials that did not develope cracking.   I won't use one of those bows either, as the only possible outcome will be a deterioration of the bow's condition.

These old bows are fifty six years old now.  Pristine ones are really hard to find.  Keep that in mind before you try to use one of them as a daily shooter.  It is your bow, use it as you wish.  Just be aware of what might happen.  The guys that say that the old bows were "meant to be bent" are only half correct.  They were built to be used and some of them were not up to the task.  Bear discontinued the Deluxes for a reason, and that reason was the failure rate.  It doesn't matter if the failure occurred in 1960 or will occur in 2016.  Just food for thought...

[imbowhunt10]

Shandor, a tip I got from someone years ago, is by far the best and easiest way I have found to string bows. Get yourself a couple of boat bow rollers. These are made of rubber. Mount them on the end of a wall, cabinet, bench, etc. Space them about 22" from center to center apart. At that spacing these have worked for about any length of bow I have. I will try to take a picture of them and post it here later. Just google boat rollers and you will find them. When you string a bow the riser lays in the groove of the top roller, and the bottom limbs sets in the groove of the bottom roller. The top limb is then easily acceptable to stringing, or unstringing. One of the best tricks I have ever found.

[2ndTimeShooter]

Kenny, thanks so much. Sounds like a great idea but I'm having trouble visualizing it, pics would help. Seems there are many styles of boat rollers so I would want to get the same you are using.

[2ndTimeShooter]

Brad, thanks also to you for explaining it all in such detail. I guess the only solution to use one as a daily shooter is to have lots of Deluxes and rotate shooting them, so no one bow is shot all the time. Isn't that logical?

I guess a Kodiak Special or Polaris of the same year or 61-62 would be a good substitute for a daily shooter with similar or the same design as a Deluxe, if anyone didn't want to use a Deluxe all the time. For a lightweight bow that's what I've bought (don't have yet), the 61 Special. I've also been told the Polaris is the same bow but haven't seen one.

I've only seen 2 Deluxe bows, the Kodiak Special Deluxe and the Kodiak Deluxe I have. I haven't seen the kind of clouding that looks like a separation of the glass from the core, only small areas of more superficial clouding in the glass itself.

There a total of 5 small stress cracks between the two bows. My 68 Cub has many more than that and I'm sure other more recent bows also have more stress cracks, and people seem to shoot them with impunity. So just from the point of view of stress cracks, I think I'm pretty safe.

You raise a good point that some Deluxe bows without signs of wear or many stress cracks may not have been shot much. Probably so for at least some bows, of any type. I can't say in general b/c I have such limited experience. But with my Kodiak Special Deluxe, it looks like it had been shot a lot. What I think was the original red feather rest was almost completely worn off... whether original or not, someone shot a lot of arrows over it. Same with the strike plate. On the Kodiak Deluxe, the feather plate is not as worn but it's worn enough so that it doesn't support an arrow any more, the arrow goes all the way down to the base pad of the plate. It's a black and white feather rest, don't know if that's original or not. The strike plate is pretty worn also.

Of course all this may not mean much... if a bow is going to delaminate it could happen at any time, whether it's used a lot or a little. Seems to me it's sort of like asking when a tire will blow. We think old worn tires are more apt to blow out, but I've seen heavily treaded new off road tires blow also... if they hit a sharp rock or nail.

With old bows it may also have something to do with how the bow is stored, the heat and humidity of the area or place it's kept, sun or temperature extremes it's exposed to in use, and so on. All mostly unknown factors with vintage bows. The only thing I know about my Kodiak Deluxe is that it was sold in San Francisco, and the last owner was from there also... a place with one of the most mild and stable climates in the country.

Then there's the issue of why Bear stopped making these bows. It would seem obvious to assume it was because of the glue problems, but in one of these forums (forget where) someone was saying it wasn't because of the glue... a problem that could eventually be solved... it was because of the glass being clear. This person was saying that someone who worked at Bear told him they used to touch up bows after the glass had been applied, if any cosmetic cracks appeared. They used automotive pigments in the glass itself, and they kept some of the same pigment and used it in a paint form to spray the limbs with paint, to hide any imperfections. In this way more bows could be sold. They couldn't do that with a clear glass limb, so a certain number of bows had to be rejected, which must have cut into profits. There is no solution to this problem. That may be one of, the main, the only, or a minor reason why Bear stopped making bows with clear limbs and didn't try it again, even if better glues were found.

Since I didn't get these bows for their collector value, I'll keep shooting them. If one breaks, I'll just have to get another bow of one model or another. I'll tell you in 1, 5, 10 years or whatever how it turns out! But if I were a "real" collector like you I would probably not shoot them either, since I would have many other great bows to shoot also. I say "real" because some of you have said I am already a collector... including you, Brad! Am I just in denial? If so, I don't care, I'm having fun and it's not hurting anyone. LOL. I'm not ready for a 12 step program.

For what it's worth, I'll add that Rick Rappe has been shooting his Kodiak Special Deluxe for many months, almost exclusively even though he has other fine bows. He goes to 3D shoots very often and so is using it quite a lot. I don't know if you know who he is, perhaps just another guy who restores vintage bows and has written on their history. He even uses a Flemish fast flight string on his, with padded loops. I haven't gone that far as I don't know enough to make that choice, but it shows that some people are willing to live with a lot more risk than others...at least when it comes to bows.

One last thing (for now) about the Kodiak Deluxe. I was measuring the center cut last night to use in Stu Milller's Dynamic Spine Calculator. Although each bow may differ, mine is cut past center 1/8th inch. That might partly explain why the arrows seem to come off it so fast... the arrow is closer to the center line of the string so it absorbs the string's and bow's energy more. Is that correct?

[damascusdave]

Not sure where I saw it but apparently the recommended brace height for the 64 inch KD is 8 to 9 inches...my stringmaker made me a great BCY-X string for that bow and when I strung it the brace height was the full 9 inches...the bow is dead silent at that BH with nothing on the string

DDave