This week in 19__

[TRAP]

Nice light.

Never seen a broken one, but now I've seen one with a hole drilled in the upper and bottom limb.

[TRAP]

So, nothing to share this week folks?

[Wade Phillips]

Trap,

Many, of the Type I & Type II Magnums were rounded up back at the Bear Factory in Grayling,and given to dealers for use as unique door handles in their shops.

I have seen several of these Type I & II Magnums drilled with holes that were used as door handles or lamps. All originated from Bear.

Floyd Eccleston got some of these magnums from Bear and used them to make lamps.

Over the years, I have seen three different Magnum Lamps that Floyd made.

The lamp in the photograph in the above post is Floyd's personal lamp that was in his shop until I removed it in 2008. It has been in the Antique Archery Arsenal & Museum ever since that time.

In 1979 Floyd brought one his Magnum Lamps to the Bowhunter Nations in Clinton, Indiana and very generously donated it. I was the more than fortunate winner of that lamp.

Every Bear bow collector in the country who heard that I won the lamp, tried to trade or buy the lamp from me because at that time the Type I & II were more than difficult to find in the wild.

[TRAP]

I'm betting none of the lamp legs you are aware of have star stamps on them.

[mangonboat]

While a bit off topic and esoteric, the legal notion of hearsay is somewhat nuanced, in a way that might enlighten our discussion.

"Hearsay" is an out-of-court assertion offered as evidence to prove as true the matter asserted. If it is offered for some other reason, it is not hearsay. The reason for excluding hearsay is that sworn testimony of witnesses in the courtroom is subject to cross examination and other scrutiny which is more likely to establish whether the matter asserted is true or not, i.e. is the witness credible? Is the information consistent with other believable evidence? So, as an example,"Fred Bear told me that the star stamp was for no-warranty bows, which could be anything from promotional gifts, dealer samples, deeply discounted bows purchased by employees from the company store". This statement is inadmissible hearsay as to the meaning of the star stamp, but it is legitimate evidence for other purposes,e.g., to show that the speaker had spoken to Fred Bear.
  The legal evidence rules excluding hearsay are subject to many exceptions for assertions  made in circumstances traditionally considered to be trustworthy. That includes everything from dying declarations, statements against self-interest, statement contained in records made and maintained in the usual course of business or government records.

So even if we cant find any explanations for stamped bows in official records from the factory, I am willing to consider the reliability of information from other sources that is consistent with other evidence, from sources previously determined to be reliable,or  given at risk to one's self interest. As an example of the last, a senior member of TG with a two digit member number who has in their collection a 1961 Kodiak with fantastically figured rosewood with a star stamp who says" I picked this up cheap in 1962 as a no-warranty second from the factory store in Grayling" would be more credible that someone with a member number above 50,000 and no previous posts who was selling the same bow with the assertion that the star stamp meant that it was a bow pulled from final inspection of day-to-day production by Fred Bear himself for gifts to VIP's and celebrities and he got it from his mom who was Johhny Weissmuller's masseuse..

[Wade Phillips]

Trap -

None of the 7 Dogleg Magnums that I presently have are stamped with a star. In thinking back I believe I can count 8 more Dogleg Magnums that have  spent time here at the Arsenal, but are now blessed with a new home. Have also seen perhaps a half dozen additional bows that were owned by others. Can’t say for sure about the ones not here now that have been examined over the years, as I have seldom ever have considered a stamping as a truly noteworthy feature.

[Wade Phillips]

Mark -

Thank you so much for your legal brief.  There is no substitute for hearing professional advice.

I believe your sentence below, clearly states the issue …

   

Originally posted by mangonboat:
… So even if we can’t find any explanations for stamped bows in official records from the factory, I am willing to consider the reliability of information from other sources that is consistent with other evidence, from sources previously determined to be reliable, or given at risk to one's self interest. …

To me, determining the reliability of the information is always the most crucial factor.

Even documentation from Bear is not always accurate. I have seen an endless number of entries in the 1950s and 1960s Bear Catalogs that are inaccurate because the existence of actual artifacts produced by Bear clearly proves the entries to be in error.

[4runr]

I really enjoyed the beginning of this thread and hoped it would continue in the direction it was intended, but the leagalleze has taken the fun out of it. I'm sure I missspelled something, but I won't be back to see it corrected.

[zepnut]

So what happened to this thread?  

[TRAP]

It's just sitting here waiting on someone to step up and add a vintage archery item for us to talk about.  

The KMags didn't go over real well.  I know a lot of folks have them but not many were shared.

I'm sure there's something of interest to be shared by everyone that visits this forum.

[damascusdave]

Never hurts to discuss the Kodiak Deluxe Trap.

DDave

[damascusdave]

In particular I often wonder at what point in 1960 a decision might have been made to discontinue production.

DDave

[Larry m]

I think Kenny has a very valid statement above. To much pontificating and not enough enjoyment in the sharing of info.............
Perhaps time to step back and take a look so that all can enjoy and participate in this thread again without feeling they will be making a mistake and have the thundering correction come down!
Wisdom is truly and always appreciated but shouldn't be feared!

[warpedarrow]

I have reread the prior posts several times and may have a different perspective than some others.  Sometimes, writing does not convey the spirit or mood of the writer.  What some people have taken as a rebuke, I simply do not see as such.  We all know what I am saying here.  Wade is the Sgt. Joe Friday of the Bear Archery world.  Sgt. Friday was famous for saying; "just the facts please".  I, too, have been corrected when I have used a shotgun approach to the truth but I do not take it as a rebuke or feel that it is personal in any way. It is just a setting out of the verified facts if there are any, and if not it is a reminded not to spread gossip.  I value verified factual information and appreciate Wade sharing his knowledge with us.  Too much of our life today is based on opinions and not truth.  Thanks to Wade for trying to keep us on the right path when it comes to Bear Archery history.  

Now, can we move on to another subject and keep this well intended thread moving?

[TRAP]

If I'm not offended, nobody else should be. And I'm most certainly not.

I've misspelled words before. And used the wrong word in places it shouldn't be used. So has Wade Phillips.

I couldn't agree more that we should stick to the facts whenever we can and in instances we can't present facts based on reliable documentation, we should let others know the information we share is based on speculation.

There's nothing wrong with speculating a little. That's part of the fun of collecting vintage archery tackle or anything else. It's fun to wonder why something was done the way it was done.

Maybe, some will criticize me for my response to Chuck (desertrat49) where I mentioned the word "heresay"for the first time. If so, Chuck, I apologize. I promise, no insult was intended. Just a wordy way of saying what I've heard doesn't necessarily fit what I've seen as far as condition of stamped Bear bows.

Dave, I think 1960 Bear Kodiak Deluxe's would be a wonderful vintage archery item to talk about for a few days. Many think they shouldn't be shot but I know you shoot yours regularly.  Please feel free to post some pics and share with the rest of us what you know about them.  I think the Deluxe is one of the best looking models Bear Archery ever shipped out of Grayling.

[Larry m]

ALL very valid point above!

Sometimes thoughts are conveyed in the written as Brad points out that can be taken differently then intended.
So much good information has come from this site over the years that it would be nice to see it being shared again!

Lets see the 1960 Deluxes!

[warpedarrow]

Well, I would love to share some pictures of Deluxes but I am so fed up with the process taking me a half hour to post one picture that I have sworn off posting pictures on this site until something changes.  It takes about a minute over at brand X traditional bowsite.  

Is there a way to go to other Tradgang threads and move pictures to new threads?  I've posted quite a few already.

[TRAP]

Brad, if you have an iPhone and a Photobucket App it is so easy once you get the hang of it.

I'll be glad to help

[warpedarrow]

Thanks Trap,  I know how to do it.  I even think I know why it is such a convoluted screwed up method.  Until something changes it just is not worth the effort.

[damascusdave]

I used to post pics. Gave it up too. Like any 57 year old bow some Deluxes
are fine to shoot and some are not. I happen to have one that was pretty clearly made by someone who quickly sorted out how to use Crystalight glass.