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Author Topic: A view point question on ?  (Read 2820 times)

Offline Ol' Ephraim

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A view point question on ?
« on: August 09, 2008, 12:26:00 PM »
I been thinking about things, this is one of them. Take a scenario
1) You have a soldier sacrifices his life to save
the lifes of his comrades.
2) You have a soldier, who fought fearlessly, saved the lifes of his comrades, but in the end is overcome by the rigors of war takes his own life.
 Both men sacrificed for country and fellowman
yet 1) is viewed as a Hero and would be given great honours.
2) Would be a thing of shame, and would be quietly buried.
Why is that? Both were valiant, both knew they would die, the only difference is the how.
Rest when I can, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

Offline shaft slinger

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2008, 12:54:00 PM »
Good point.
      i have allways thought one's life is his own to do with as he pleases

Offline Eastern fisher

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2008, 03:31:00 PM »
People just have no clue what a soldier goes thru.  I cannot even imagine what they go thru day in and day out.  I will say one thing tho.  Whether he takes his own life because of stress or someone takes it for them, They are still heros in my book.  The men and women of the US military and my military (Canadian) are out there putting thier lives on the line so other nations can live the life we do.  THEY ARE ALL HEROS. People commit suicide all the time.  I personally do not think that they ithings and this was their way.  The military men and women are HEROES.  I pray that ALL of them return to thier respective homes and contunue on to old age.  God bless them all.
A bad day of hunting is still far better than a good day at work.

Offline Eastern fisher

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2008, 03:35:00 PM »
I apologize for the typing error.  I meant to say that is someone takes thier own life.  I do not think any less of them, nor do I think that they are weak.  They have their own ways of dealing with stuff and this is their way.
A bad day of hunting is still far better than a good day at work.

Offline Ol' Ephraim

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 08:43:00 AM »
This is going to be blunt I used the above scenario to hopefully feel people out.
 How is one different than the other?
There is a different "feeling" about self-inflicted death and death by circumstance or heroics.
 Many faiths hold that cause your own death and you loose Gods favor.
 If life is lost by circumstance/heroics there is grief, sorrow and such, but if it is self-inflicted the same is there but also anger,bitterness and resentment toward what many would feel was a "quitter".
 There is more I want to put in here but the words won't come.
 So if the person has given everything they can, the beat part of life is used up, Why would anyone be angry or resentful, they have gotten the best.
Rest when I can, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

Offline Doc Nock

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 11:27:00 AM »
Ol E,

This seems to hold a lot of emotional value to you, and that becomes very personal.  I've avoided this for I felt unworthy to reply to your pointed question. I see your point, but must try to share another perspective....

As a believer in Christ's teachings, I have to believe God never gives us more than we can take...but if we fail to realize that on our own, alone, we're nothing, then situations become overwhelming and your point is well taken.

I've been beaten down, stretched beyond my abilities and many, many times cried out knowing I could not go on...

At those moments, admitting that there was nothing left in me to give, asking God for help, I was left totally in awe at how simply, I gained new unexplained strength to put one foot in front of another...yet One. More. Day! and then again the next.  Asking God for "help" was the key to His blessing of "another day of strength!"

It's what I've come to believe, "dying to self" must mean biblically...that I realize and surrender that alone, I cannot go on, but with God, the promise of the holy spirit within me, God will see me through unbelievably tough, ugly circumstances.

That is my personal belief. Each individual has to come to peace with those issues on their own, but I share if FWIW.

As to the anger, from a counseling standpoint, people are driven I believe, as folks here witness to daily, to reach out and help others. I believe, again, that is God's intention, for us to be in community.

When someone we care about secretly "gives up" and doesn't reach out to those around them when in anguish and frustration, it denies us the chance to do what most of us might feel is our "responsibility." To TRY TO HELP

Much of our culture has changed, but I think those on this site and the "silent majority" might still feel that way.

From that viewpoint,many I've talked to after a loved one committed suicide, feel the other person was being "selfish" in choosing to destroy the love of those around them by such a desperate, final act with no recourse, leaving behind gaping wounds and a feeling of "guilt" that others would have helped if they'd "only have known."

No, there are no magic or silver bullets to fix those things that have worn us down. But, most of us would want to cherish life and the love of those around us, enough to at least say, "hey, i'm about at wits end here and I cannot go on alone, can you help?"

Depression, overwhelming saddness and feelings of abject failure are common today. Perhaps, God allows these things to show us that we cannot begin to survive this world without Him in our lives?

Mortals will often fail, which is likely what led another mortal to the conclsuion that suicide is an option.  God will never fail.

Death is inevitable. Christ is the only true answer to eternal death. But while salvation and eternal life is free and Grace washes away the worst of sin in a request to be forgiven, there are "costs."

One of those costs, coming full circle, is that if we accept Christ's salvation, then we must also realize that alone, we are nothing in the face of adversity, and we must "let go of self reliance" and become Christ centered, admitting that we NEED Him in our life to go on, to do right, to persevere.

I apologize in advance for being so long winded. I'm a totally unworthy, empty & broken vessel to speak God's words of salvation, given my own sinful nature and constant failing and need for others prayers, guidance and insights, but this is something I struggled with since you first posted. I wish I were more eloquent and capable.

I can only pray that something of all this makes sense... I will never accept anyone who ever felt God's presence in their lives are "a heartbeat and six feet from hell".

One never fights so galantly as when they're on their knees!

Shalom and peace, Bernard
The words "Child" and "terminal illness" should never share the same sentence! Those who care-do, others question!

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Offline Inhimwelive

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 12:21:00 PM »
To me a hero is a person who sacrifices for others.. When a person commits suicide they are thinking only of themselves.. I have had two friends commit suicide and both of them were only thinking about their own problems.. They left behind family and friends who had to suffer through grief on top of everything else.
 
When you go to war you are not choosing your death, you are choosing to give your life to a cause that carries great risk.. But the time of our death is still in Gods hands.. Here is a story from a friend of mine who just returned from Iraq.. His job in the army was to keep the roads clear of wreckage.. This is a very dangerous job because many times there are mines set. One day while out clearing they needed to back up the truck. However the truck would not go in reverse..No matter what they tried it would not back up.. After they gave up and got out they found a mine about 6 feet behind the truck.
To commit suicide is to rob God of his authority over our lives. That being said I will gladly pray or talk with anyone who is struggling with depression..I have went through it myself and know how overwhelming it can be.. God bless, Kevin T
In Him we live and move and have our being , make a joyful noise, sing unto the Lord, tell him of your love, dance before him...

Offline JC

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 01:16:00 PM »
Well said Dave and Kevin.

Bernie, not sure if this is a hypothetical question or if you know someone actually struggling with the thought of taking their life. If it truly is a hypothetical, I think Kevin had an excellent definition between the two concepts, at least, I agree with his.

If you know someone going through this type of agony, please reach out to them to get help. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is worth suicide. It's as simple as that to me...but then, I've been called simple more than once. There are always options, always something or someone worth living for...mainly, there is always Jesus Christ who is worth living for...and if that person makes the connection with him, they will realize their true purpose in life and that they are not alone no matter what pain and turmoil they may face.

Tell them to think hard on the things they love about life...the simple pleasures are the easiest to forget yet often the most powerful: watch the arcing flight of an arrow, have them watch a sunrise, see the woods come alive at first light, go to a playground and listen to children laugh, eat an ice cream on a hot day...life is indeed filled with many things we forget that bring us joy. Help them remember those things...

That said, if they truly are on the verge of the biggest mistake they will ever make, take them to seek medical help: quite often this type of behavior can be caused by easily treatable medical conditions.

Either way, there is simply no reason for such a tragic, wasteful loss of someone's life. I will offer the same as Kevin, I will gladly pray or talk to anyone who is contemplating harming themself.

May God reach out and touch the person you may be talking about...
"Being there was good enough..." Charlie Lamb reflecting on a hunt
TGMM Brotherhood of the Bow

Offline TexMex

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2008, 01:37:00 PM »
I am not eloquent at all, however I do agree with Doc, there are a lot of folks here willing to help. Like Jesus said (I think) where 2 or 3 gather in my name I will be amounst them.

Look at how many folks are here -all prayer for each other- WE ARE BLESSED.

Offline Doc Nock

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 01:46:00 PM »
I wish I could remember the scripture that speaks to "a single strand is easily broken, but a strand of three is hard to break".

I've heard that explained as the 3 strands are ourselves, a brother or sister in Christ, and Christ himself! that 3-strand can endure almost anything!

Kevin, JC, you guys said it better'n me...but it was in there trying to get out...
The words "Child" and "terminal illness" should never share the same sentence! Those who care-do, others question!

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Offline TexMex

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 02:00:00 PM »
I saw that explained in a movie cept the old man showed this kid a twig and asked the boy to break it -the boy did- then the old got several twigs together and again ask the boy to break them -the boy could not.  Then the old man said "see along one can be broken but more are stronger -somewhere along those line.

Offline Ray_G

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 02:14:00 PM »
Doc,

Ecclesiastes 4:9 - 12.
Sunset Hill 64" 54# @ 26"  "Destiny"

B.H.A.

Offline Ray_G

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 02:49:00 PM »
In all of our earthly wisdom, sometimes we do not understand how someone gets to the point of suicide.  We know that is the outcome of desperation and wonder "why that one did not reach out".  I am dealing with this in my own home right now.  Last November, the day before Thanksgiving, my wife called me at my office and asked me to come home and lock up all of my guns, knives and power tools.  She was that desperate and hadn't even talked with me about it nor anyone else.  At least she called - this time.  She has suffered a long time (since birth) with disease that they can not cure.  It has gotten worse as she ages and she is on a ton of medications.

I took her to a psychiatrist and she was admitted to a part of the hospital that is for mental and drug addiction problems.  She was in there six days while they figured out the meds for the depression and anxiety.  Over the months all this has needed to be modified and she is under regular care and counseling, weekly.

At times, I wonder "why me Lord - I had plans"?  I have now understood my need to lean on Him in a way that I never knew.  In this bad experience (not that He caused it) I have seen my own selfishness.  I still throw a pity party for me every now and then but I do like Doc and cry out for His wisdom and grace.  At times it has worn me down to where I think I need some meds but it is only dying to self.  I have brothers in the Lord that stand with me and bring me back to accountability.  

I think in regard to the questions that started this, it all depends on where we are at in our walk as to how we respond.  For some, there may not be that understanding of the Father's intent in His Word or direction.  I don't think that they will suffer damnation on account of limited knowledge of His Word.  His grace and mercy go way beyond that.  Consider that some may not have the ability to reason, even at an adult age.  I don't think that in the fallen state that man is in that we can know the depth of His love.  I do think it will be known once we are with Him but that is another thread.  On the other hand, He is sovereign and to be obeyed and will judge all things.  So we who are in the light must walk in the light.  

Like JC wrote, I have taken to watching my arrow fly, enjoy ice cream (when she let's me get it), enjoyed the laughter of children, etc.  It helps me to cope with all the complications of changing life.  As was stated by all, be there to pray, hold a hand; help in whatever way.  Mostly we are a selfish lot - mankind - but if we are in Jesus, then we are being changed daily.

I struggle with the correct words in this as email and forums can not always express adequately what is in our hearts.  I hope that no one takes offense.

Ray
Sunset Hill 64" 54# @ 26"  "Destiny"

B.H.A.

Offline Doc Nock

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 03:17:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ol' Ephraim:
 So if the person has given everything they can, the beat part of life is used up, Why would anyone be angry or resentful, they have gotten the best.
Thanks, Ray! Yup. That is the one!  :)

Bernie, I quoted only that small part of your last post... about having "given the best part of life is used up" and that is where Kevin's and JC's words speak to this much better than mine. We are so limited in our vision...because we're mortal. I've been through things I thought there was no earthly way I could survive it all, and there wasn't. But there was in God's way.  :)

He sees life as we cannot. Wanting to believe we can see all that there is harkens back to our earliest 'fall.' We can't know. Not good grammar, but it's correct...we CAN NOT KNOW.

Nobody has the ability to know that they've given the best they have, Only God knows that! And who's to say that "our best" is what those who love us need or want?  I know those I dearly love are flawed as all get out...as am I...and yet, we cherish one another for other reasons.

Isn't that what love is... caring in spite of imperfections? So why would love not want our least as well as our best?

I know at this tender age of 60, I sure hope God's not done with me yet..arthritis and all the aches and pains...other junk going wrong... hanging on by my fingernails for this next job... I'm thinking He's got some good things in mind for me to do yet before He calls me Home...and afterall, when, where and how I leave this world are HIS dominion, not mine, as Kevin pointed out.

Whatever it takes, get whomever is struggling to someone who can sift through the junk and find those nuggest of pure gold in life and God's plan.

Peace...keep the Son in your eyes...
The words "Child" and "terminal illness" should never share the same sentence! Those who care-do, others question!

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Offline BenBow

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 03:28:00 PM »
If I understand correctly the question is should the one who took their own life be honored the same as the one who died in battle. One must take into account the other people who will die because this one left. To say this one fought for their comrades doesn't make it right that they quit their job before it was finished. A soldier commits his life to his comrades. That individual is to be pitied for the pressure that was on him. He should be treated with compassion not contempt. But should he be honored for not finishing his job reqardless of the reason why? I think not.
But his bow will remain steady, and his hands will be skillful; because of the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,  (Genesis 49:24 [NETfree])

Offline Hooked

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 04:04:00 PM »
Well said, Doc and Kevin...

I would add that it is not our place to judge someone over any sinful act.  Yes, suicide is considered a sin, but I believe God knows each of us better than we know ourselves and he will judge each person individually.  Many believe suicide immediately prevents one from going to heaven.  I will leave that judgement up to the King of Kings.
For example: if a person were to be so mentally ill, for whatever reason (war, abuse, etc), that common sense and clear thinking is not an option, I believe our merciful Lord will understand that and judge appropriately.
"But, the bestest doctor of all is God!"  Katie Jones (7 years old)

Offline Ray_G

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 08:08:00 PM »
BenBow,

There was a recent story out about a soldier who was in combat in Iraq that was pictured carrying a child away from danger.  He was hailed a hero, did his tour and after being home, the effects of the stress drew him to a point of a decision for suicide.  I am not sure if that is who Ol' Ephraim is referring to but the soldier served his fellows to the end of his tour.  In that case, I would have to leave it to the Father to say.  I see your point if one was still on duty.

Hooked and Doc, you both said some things that I was attempting to say but couldn't hammer it out on my own.  Thanks.

Ray
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Offline BOFF

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 08:12:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ol' Ephraim:
I been thinking about things, this is one of them. Take a scenario
1) You have a soldier sacrifices his life to save
the lifes of his comrades.
2) You have a soldier, who fought fearlessly, saved the lifes of his comrades, but in the end is overcome by the rigors of war takes his own life.
 Both men sacrificed for country and fellowman
yet 1) is viewed as a Hero and would be given great honours.
2) Would be a thing of shame, and would be quietly buried.
Why is that? Both were valiant, both knew they would die, the only difference is the how.
Bernard,

To me, in my opinion, #2 is a shame. It is a shame as family, friends, and even those who we believe don't care, who really do, would have, more than anything else, been wiling to help, if they had know we were at our last step.

So many people, are  there, and could have helped, if they had known. It is a sorrowful, quiet burial, due to the loss of anyone who commits suicide, due to the fact, the person could have been helped, and been a further asset to the world. Many of these people are depressed, or prideful, and have never asked for help due to their pride. In my own beliefs, it takes a strong person to ask for help, I should know.

I have found out in my own life, through depression, and working in a mental health environment, asking for help does not put myself in obligation to others. I thought I would have been obligated to others, and being prideful and wanting to be self sufficient, I didn't want to be in this situation. However, I found many people, didn't want anything in return, other than my good health, and wanting to see me prosper in happiness.

Many times, people considering suicide, are depressed, and depression does not allow a person to make logical choices, or see the true reality of how others love them, and are dependant upon them and their life. The only choices that seem logical at the time, are quick fixes, and the worst possible choices available.
 
I firmly believe, we all are valuable assets, put here on earth. Each of us has been given talents and abilities that others do not have, and if these talents and abilities are not used, there will be important and meaningful tasks that are not completed. I realize from experience, that this often means nothing to a depressed or suicidal person, as their thinking is not clear or even able to see the positive side of things. They are hurting terribly, and are wanting a quick answer.

I encourage you to talk to anyone you know, considering the quick fix, or seeking a quick solution. There are other, better answers out there, with better and more meaningful solutions to provide happiness and peace with in one's self.


If I may help in anyway, or possibly provide you some further information, or help, please let me know through a pm, here, or email.


God Bless, David B.

Offline sticshooter

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 08:54:00 PM »
IMO they are both HEROS. Suicide in some case's is selfish. But what you wrote here about the soldier IMO is not. I am not the Judge but rather a sinner who without Christ would be lost.Doc and JC and some others have said it better then I. God hears when will call on HIm.<><
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Offline Ol' Ephraim

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Re: A view point question on ?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2008, 12:02:00 AM »
The soldiers were an illustration, this person a soldiered thru life not the military.
 Life, family and job, has turned on him in the last couple of yrs. So he doesn't seem to see the sun rise, or hear the birds.
 Doc, and others having some Bible knowledge, I know what you are saying, hopefully there is not a total loss of faith and spirituality.
JC yes this is real, Boff and Ray and the rest thanks for your in-put. You all reminded me of things I had forgot to say.
 I do appreciatte the time it took to type all of that.
 This will be used, but I will be gone on the road for a while so lets let this rest and when I return I will update, Thanks again for your time.
Rest when I can, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

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