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Author Topic: To be or not to be...  (Read 1483 times)

Offline Lee Robinson .

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To be or not to be...
« on: December 15, 2010, 08:21:00 PM »
I hope no one minds this post, but it is motivated as a thought for believers to share with non-believers. Being that this is a "prayer's request" forum, I thought the message would be welcomed by the readers of this section.

"To be or not to be?"

Why, if we are only matter, do we have self preservation or wish "to be?" Matter does not have self-purpose or self-reason. Natural matter can not have self preservation, as natural matter MUST follow the LAW of thermodynamics and therefore breaks down to disorder...yet life does not follow such behavior. Life has an intrinsic nature “to be,” to preserve itself. Life preserves, builds, and adapts…meaning OUR EXISTENCE defies the law of going to disorder. Traits do not exist for long if they don’t have purpose as they cost energy, yet self-preservation is the oldest of all traits. Temporary preservation would be futile and illogical, as everything we do would go extinct and extinguish…and ultimately be pointless...yet we do strive to preserve ourselves in order “to be,” to exist. If we are not eternal, we die...and if we die, we "be not," so how can an atheist justify an "illogical behavior" or deny our desire for “self-preservation” when this intrinsic nature that drives us to "to be" is so obviously within us? The only logical reason self preservation exists as a trait is we must have some “eternal” being…therefore we must be more than just "natural." We must be "SUPER-natural.” We must be more than just chemical beings, as we do seek preservation. We are super-naturally created “to be” eternally; and therefore we are all "super-natural" ourselves.
 
"Dr. Frankenstein" types can't understand what it is that causes life...what is it about us that causes us to live...which means to respond...to adapt...to maintain order...to defy the laws of physics? Super-man (a fictional character) defied the law of gravity and was described to be "super." We (true existing characters) defy the law of thermodynamics. We are all truly super-natural and awesome. The desire to preserve could NOT evolve via mutation, as mutation would require a prerequisite of life, and life requires the prerequisite of self preservation. In other words, self-preservation and the obtainment of order would have to come first in evolution...which defies natural law UNLESS evolution (natural) was not the source of “our being”, but creation (supernatural) is the source.

My point is... like it or not, we all have an INTERNAL and UN-NATURAL desire to be which defies the laws that drive pure chemical matter. We can not deny our natural intrinsic desire to be. This is something we all desire...and all know the instinct to be is within us all. For like God, I too "am." Yet, this isn’t the only reason I believe. My belief in creation is a synergistic effect. It isn't because of one fact here or one fact there. It is an assembly of many facts & many personal observations plus personal investigations that I have had which caused me to come up with my belief. Also, I sought out consistency to what would hold up to the tests of logic and observation. I have found Christianity does this best, but that is not the purpose of this essay. The purpose of this essay is to address atheism as illogical. Yes, I have noticed that one can not believe all translations or all pastors, but if one truly seeks the truth I believe one will find it...but ONLY if they are open to such. Some believe like sheep and simply follow others, but that isn't me. That just doesn't work for me. I had to see more...and had to look within myself, at nature, at science, religion, and theology...and then filter out stuff that couldn't be verified or that was inconsistent. Fortunately, there is some good factually based science out there as well as some good consistent religion out there worthy of investigation.
   
In conclusion, self preservation only has merit or purpose if it is eternal. As previously mentioned, behaviors and traits are not maintained in populations over long periods of time unless the behavior or trait has a purpose, therefore the purpose of our intrinsic nature of self-preservation must be eternal for if it isn’t eternal then self preservation does not exist, yet we know it does as we all feel the drive “to be.” Fun, money, power, etc type answers are all atheistic cop outs to the question on why does self preservation exist since they are all only temporary as well if life isn’t eternal…and therefore lack merit and are illogical. The decision “to believe” or “not” is of course one based upon both faith and logic and perhaps not absolute “proof.” That said there certainly is evidence for creation and good sciences that can be seen and tested while much “science” and religion is based upon theory.  Ironically, theoretical “sciences” seem to require even greater faith, as such “sciences’ often invent non-provable theoretically based unverifiable concepts (assumptions) such as “virtual particles” and “anti-matter,” which conveniently can’t be contained or measured as these “things annihilate anything they come in contact with and therefore can’t be directly observed” so to speak. These theoretical concepts are created to “explain” how “non-matter” forms of “matter” could escape a black hole when light itself can’t do so in order for the “Big-Bang” to work. Such is not true science, as it lacks true concrete evidence. Logic dictates we must be eternal as atheistic/temporary self preservation defies logic, defies physics, and lacks real non-theoretical evidence of any alternate possible production.

I hope someone finds some pleasure in that reading.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline Doc Nock

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 03:15:00 PM »
Wow, Lee.

I followed that but it made my brain sweat!

you might enjoy an older book from the 70's or 80's. "The Christian Agnostic".

You are a thinker.  Having been "hooked on science" I eventually realized it was easier to adopt the definition of faith that goes somewhat like this: "Faith is believing in one's heart what cannot be proved or disproved."

The older I get the less cerebral I become...  :)
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Offline bornagainbowhunter

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 04:47:00 PM »
I like the Bible's term for faith, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen".  Now thats perfect.

God Bless,
Nathan
But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head. Psalms 3:3

Online stillhunter

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2010, 06:03:00 PM »
Thank you Nathan!For it is by grace you are saved by faith not by works so no man shall boast.(ephesions) Thank you lord and savior JESUS for revealing your word to help us understand which is not seen.

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 06:36:00 PM »
Sorry I left out in the ephesian quote-and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works...

Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 08:30:00 PM »
Thanks for the interests guys.

First, let me say I do realize that mankind, given our very limited mental capacity, is limited in understanding...and therefore will never understand how God did it. To think we could do so would be both extremely ignorant and extremely arrogant. But, I do think we can understand enough to know it is more probable that God did it, as it is impossible for our universe and everything it in to have occurred on accident.

Honestly, I wish I didn't have to seek so much stuff...but at this stage I do think I have answered enough of my "how is that possible" questions that I can now focus on the MORE IMPORTANT PART of building a relationship with God rather than worrying so much about is He real. Although I was raised a believer, I had many worldly teachings that I had to personally battle and settle for my own peace of mind. I have met some that just "know" and I think some of them may not be so honest with themselves but I also believe there really are some that just "know"...and I would say I am probably jealous of those people as some of them may have a more personal connection with God than I myself have had...but I am working on that. This post however was done because I think some of the issues I battled (I teach science) are similar to some of the issues that many atheists battle. I began to realize atheism required a much greater faith than does creationism, as for me it seemed atheism (a universe without God) was far less probable than was a universe with God...and I finally began finding more peace on the issue.

That said, I do realize we still believe based upon faith. People may gain a great deal of faith through personal experiences (logical or not as one cannot deny their personal experiences) while at other times we may gain faith based upon "what is most probable." IMO...God reaches each and every one of us that seeks Him in whatever way each person needs. We are all different, so what works for one may not be what works for another. I just wrote this because I have noticed that many atheists claim "logic" which IMO atheism is not. But...hey...it is ultimately faith. I just enjoy seeing an atheist realize that atheism is self-contradicting...as that often will make them think, "Is something else more possible?" And, if we can get them to question things, it opens the door.

And, for the record, I don't think evolution is impossible, but just that if it did happen it wasn't by chance. After all, Genesis does say God commanded the earth to produce and the waters to bring forth many of the life forms we see in the water, land, and sky.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 08:50:00 PM »
Is the "Big Bang" actually possible or is it self-contradicting?

Well, the big bang is the idea of a black hole exploding...and yet a black hole is something with a gravity so strong that light can't escape...yet IRONICALLY the much heavier and slower (since nothing can travel faster than light) matter that forms the black hole is supposedly capable of "exploding" or escaping this inescapable gravitational force. This is a self-contradiction that Hawkins even acknowledged so what he and other theoretical physicists have done is create "virtual" particles and "anti-matter" particles that "could theoretically escape" but unfortunately (or conveniently) these theoretical particles can't be DIRECTLY measured or contained (meaning we have no DIRECT evidence of such items only "indirect evidence" and theory of them). Even Hawkins, in his movie "A Brief History of Time" states he chose to study theoretical science because it required no concrete facts and couldn't be proven wrong. How's that for making up one's own religion? In other words...this too is a faith, but one that isn't considered "religious" by "scientists."

Another atheistic problem is Where did the 1st living things come from? Kind of covered in the self-preservation idea above.

Another question by atheists (and some believers) is Where did God come from? Well, to start off, the question operates under the assumption that "if God exists," so if God exists, then it is reasonable to pursue the concept that He created space and time. If He did so, then He must "preclude" (although "pre" isn't the right word as it would require time to be "pre") time and would be outside of time. After all, if God exists, we acknowledge He isn't confined by the 3 dimensions of space (length, width, and height) in a chemical body of matter, so why would He be bound by time (the 4th dimension according to science). After all, this is reasonable as science actually has confirmed there are 4 dimensions...aka "space-time since for something physical to exist and move it must take up space and take up time (time being the interval between two events or locations)." Have you ever had an aquarium? Did you not put in it what your fish need? Could you not reach into it without being contained by it yourself? Well...if God created the Universe and time, could He not put "physics" in the universe for us instead of for Him and be able to reach into such without being contained by such as He is not of this universe but from the Heavens? Ever notice that according to scripture that God isn't described to be bound by time because He invented it? "I am not the past. I am not the present. I am not the future. I am." Or, "A thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years." And, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" (the beginning and the end of our universe). To me, this suggests that His "eternal" being isn't one that endures time or lasts forever, but instead is one that exists without time...and therefore He would could not have needed to "come from" something as He is timeless and not effected by such. The idea of needing a beginning or the question of "Where did God come from?" assumes God is bound by time...when in perhaps He is outside of time because like our aquarium...He invented it for us, which I believe the bible attempts to describe to our limited minds. I believe He didn't go into great detail as to the specifics simply because our limited minds are incapable of understanding his awesomeness or what "eternity" actually means.
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Offline bucksdown

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 02:20:00 PM »
i saw some christian scientist debating the big bang theroy and creation. they gave an example that totally destroyed the big bang. they were saying how perfect our earth revolves around the sun to create the exact amount of oxygen for humans, animals, plants and fish in the water to live.( non believing scientist wanted to find a way to move the earth just a little.)  everything would be destroyed, our water, the artic would melt, and the heat would kill us. they talked of how comlplex our bodies are as with trying to clone us, with our dna being so individual, with each cell being so comlplex, with it there would be thousands of of steps, and as they progressed, with any mistake at anytime whether it was a thousand , million, or a billion, they would have to go back and start all over again. i'm not sure exactly how many cells they said are in our bodies  but i believe they said, each one broken down would be into the billions. i personally believe GOD created everything. if we would even take the scientist facts, ( not therories ) we could see there is no way any of this just happened. isn't it funny as they try and discount GOD, they find the true answers. the sadiest part is how satan uses them to create confusion. but isn't that one of his main goals?  :knothead:

Offline bayoulongbowman

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 04:03:00 PM »
Lee, my father was the science supevisor for the parish,  here in Baton Rouge. Seems like when new books were being reviewed, how did we happen would come up. My dad always took the side of our faith in God. But , I know some of what teachers face. God bless ...mark
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Offline Rookie@51

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 08:45:00 PM »
Not being to smart with book learning I have found it a whole lot easer to walk the FAITH road then to dig into the HOW road. I found your post very hard to follow until I read it out loud. I to am like Doc said. IT made my brain sweat to read this and even more to understand it. As far as I'm concerened there was a big bang. God said it and BANG there it was. I know there is no great revelation in that but that is how I roll. All the time I spend trying to make this settle into this brain of mine the less time I have to be a wittness to those who haven't ever excepted Christ. So the HOW will just have to wait for me. I want to be more about the NOW and the HERE AFTER. Thanks for the time you have spent sharing this with us and God bless you for your efforts. What you said has give me much food for thought. Merry CHRISTmas to you and yours.......Dusty
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Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 09:08:00 AM »
Rookie,

Have you ever wondered how the big bang explosion could occur (theoretically) since the origin of it would be a black hole...and in a black hole not even light (which is the fastest and lightest thing in the universe) can escape the gravity of a black hole? If everything else is heavier and slower than light, then the "particles" that made up the black hole and universe wouldn't be able to explode, as that would mean slower and more massive things could fly away and escape when light itself can't even do so. That is why theoretical scientists, such as Steven Hawkins) came up with the concepts of virtual particles (imaginary particles) and anti-matter (which conveniently can't be directly measured since it instantly annihilates anything it comes into contact with). He mentions that he had to create a way for things to escape and the only way they could do so was if they could teleport (going from one location to another instantly and therefore be faster than light). I believe he watched a little too much star trek growing up. LOL. Steven Hawkins himself (in his video "A Brief History of Time" even admits that he chose to study cosmology since it was entirely theoretical and couldn't be proven right or wrong). Sounds like a man made religion to me. I prefer a bit more foundation than teleporting particles.

One thing I have learned is we are certainly NOT all the same. I believe God reaches different people in different ways. I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with someone accepting faith based upon their relationship with God, nor do I think there is anything wrong with someone accepting faith in God's existence as a result of it being the most probable outcome (scientifically investigation of how we could have or could have gotten here)...as long as in the end both work on the relationship. I have sought answers to questions, but now that I have "settled" my questions, I need to focus on the relationship side more...and leave the remaining "details" (as you put it) for later as no one is capable of understanding all the depths of God's abilities...and honestly, we can't even begin to fathom His awesomeness regardless of what we think we can understand. In the end, it is certainly "saved by Faith."
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 10:58:00 AM »
Read Romans chapters 1-3 and 2 Thessalonians and receive the Savior. We have all been in the same boat.I used to believe that there was probably a God but evolution was a easy way to avoid Him till he grabbed me by my bootstraps and I began reading the bible.Now evolution is not even in the picture.Not sorry for my narrow mind views in a world that is in dire straits.I LOVE my relationship with Him and His word.

Offline Lee Robinson .

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 08:30:00 PM »
Sorry for the butchered up post above that initiated the conversation. I have worked on it extensively over the last few days and I have finally produced a version that I THINK reads a little easier. If however anyone sees something that I should clarify, by all means please SPEAK UP. I only wrote this for two reasons... 1. For my kids should something happen to me, and 2. to help "fence riders." I do not believe my words will "convert" anyone that is a strong atheist or closed minded on the issue, but I do think it might help someone that is confused and is searching. So, on that note, if you think you may have some good revisions, please let me know.

  http://www.protegelongbows.com/iam.htm
Until next time...good shooting,
Lee

Online Al Dente

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Re: To be or not to be...
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 12:14:00 PM »
I am a firm believer in faith and prayer.  This was instilled in me by my Mother's Mother and my Father's Father.  I became a devotee of Padre Pio, now Saint Pio, and have tried to live a life worthy of being a disciple of Christ.
Just as Padre Pio battled Satan on an almost daily basis, we too are tested.
Some succumb to his evil meanderings, others repel them.  I know, deep inside I have the "Power of Pio", and this is what guides me, inspires me, and protects me.
Faith provides me with comfort, knowing that I am never alone.  Regardless of what happens to me, good or bad, I am a better, stronger person for it.  My faith has been tested, but it never faltered, coming to the realization that this is what will be, and in the end it will good.
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