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Author Topic: Red Flags Everywhere  (Read 3889 times)

Offline Firstarrow

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 02:07:00 PM »
Sad thing is with wealth.

If you take it from the rich & give it to the poor, then the poor stay poor. Their bank account changes, not their thinking. It doesn't take long for them to to be in a worse situation than before. AND - it is never their fault.

Thanks for your heads up Dr. Ashby
Being first, making a mark and being part of
something great!
Rich

May you keep the wind to your nose, have the patience of Job, and have your Firstarrow fly true.

Offline Lonesome Wind

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 04:35:00 PM »
I agree with Jeff Sample.
When I was with Barrel & Bow 3 weeks ago this is what they feared. Marco told me Zuma was tring to sieze power from Mbeki & that Zuma has ties to Mugabe in Zim. I too was hoping to return to SA in 4 years, & hope I am still able to. If you look at what happened to Zim you'd have to be a fool to think it couldn't happen in SA. Just because SA has a more industrialized economy dosen't insulate it from radicals destroying everything. When I was there the ANC had a mantra, "it's Apartheid's fault."
Whites are very concerned, & for good reason. If you heard & saw your nieghbors to the north have their land taken, & in many cases butchered, you'd have some serious concerns as well.
I'll say a prayer for all the friends I made while in SA, white & black, & hope all the best for them.
Chris G, let us know you're doing all right!
Keep your stick bent!
Vince

Offline tradtusker

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2008, 03:37:00 AM »
this land grad thing is not a case of "they might start taking land in South Africa" they have already taken huge areas of land! its happening now guys its been happening for last 5 years and now Zuma is in its going to get worse!
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Andy Ivy

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2008, 11:29:00 AM »
Mr Magoo,

Now I know where I remember you from. You're the guy who thought his world was crashing in on him because of some logging.

You have to be an educator, from your tone. I understand now.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Brent Hill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2008, 12:31:00 PM »
Read the book by David Lamb called the Afrikans.  Its a review of post colonial africa from the 1950's to about 1985.  The book details the numerous cultural issues and obsticals that faced and still plague the nations in africa who had at that time gained independence from the colonial powers in Europe.  My guide, whose from South Africa, recommended it.  Unfortunately, those problems are the same problems plaguing them now.  bhill

Offline Brent Hill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2008, 06:45:00 PM »
Please excuse my rambling and spelling.  I was discussing this very issue with Wilham Frost, my guide/friend and owner of Matlabas Game Hunters,  last week before all of the recent developments.  

I previously ment to say that the very problems that faced the original "freed" and independent nations of subsahara  Africa are the very same problems that now face South Africa.  Ineffective and corrupt governments run by one tribe to the detriment of all other tribes are constantly being overthrown by other generals, tribes... who once supported the original government that week.  
South Africa currently has 11 official languages which "help" represent the numerous black tribes that settled there.   Why this is important is the value of the tribe within Africa.  In America, we are Americans, maybe Texans, but rarely do we place as much worth in say our tribe or extended family / community as the African.  No American family choses to form its own family army.  It is rare in the US anymore to have long standing feuds between extended families that result in sustained armed conflict or genocide.  With exception the the Amish and other such groups, American family groups don't normally create large independent economic systems to sustain their members and exclude all nonfamily individuals.  As a whole, we have melted together.  We are not as concerned in our ancestry when we buy our groceries, pick our hunting partners, choose our spouse.

The African will choose his tribe over almost everything.  The concepts of national pride and  a national economy are a new concepts to him, artificially placed on him through colonialism.  In SFA, numerous africans told me almost everyday that we americans only see a bunch of black people, but in truth each tribe was a distinct and different tribe with totally unique traits and such.  At the time I considered that rude since I was paying them $ only to be insulted.   Now I see that they were right and unfortunately, each tribe with its distinct history and interests are mad at and in conflict with each other tribe.  From David Lamb's book, it appeared generally that the African tribes would only stop warring and killing their own for 2 occasions :
1.  If they were ordered to by military force who could enforce such a prohibition,(Great Britain in Kenya) or  2. To condemn the whites within the African continent,(  The Independent african countries meet annually to discuss the continent's numerous issues such as plague, Aids, genocide of their own neighbors just to name a few.  Before the end of Apartoid... please excuse my spelling..., these very nations would conveniently overlook the several thousands of dead africans at their borders who were slain by africans and spend endless hours attacking the then white run government of SFA).  My point, these tribes have no allegiance to their nation and rarely value institutions
such as hunting that would benefit the nation as a whole.   The value of an institution is weighed in its benefit to the tribe.

 Example.    The equal opportunity systems referred to earlier in this string  on its face face appears to be an afirmative action program similar to that was in a our nation.  This program forces businesses in SFA to hire or attempt to hire blacks before hiring a white person.  Problem 1. These black candidates for such a job position are provided by the ruling government.  They may not be the most qualified.  2. The list of qualified black canditates picked by the ruling government are normally from the same tribe as the members of the ruling party.  I could go on for a while over those two issues, but I won't.  The biggest problem with the system is not the program's willingness to further the economic interests of the blacks in SFA.  The biggest problem is the system's willingness to further the interest of the ruling party's tribe over the other tribes in SFA.  The whites, Zulus, ... just another tribe to the other tribes.  To be attacked, to be victimized... to the benefit of the offender's tribe.  

If SFA (or the continent as a whole) is to have any stability, the population as a whole most overlook centuries of tribal anymousity and view themselves, white and black, as South Africans.  They must see their fate is dependent on the success of SFA as a nation, not their tribe.  Unfortunatly, SFA's neighbors are still decades later battling with the failed promises of their own independence.  It now appears that SFA is facing this same grief.

I'm done rambling.  Obviously, I'm not an expert and have only been to the motherland 1 time and have only read a few books on the continent.  But to answer the question, is anyone else afraid of this,  I'm very afraid.  For my future trips I'll admit, but more importantly for my new friends, the Frost  Family, who let me play with my bow and arrow with the Kudus.  Bhill

Offline John3

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2008, 08:22:00 PM »
The summer of 2007 I had paid my deposit and bought the airline tickets to go bowhunt in South Africa. I was told (by a person that has been bowhunting in SA 15 years) to NOT leave the airport in Jo-burg. "Do not let your bags out of your sight and stay at the Holiday Inn at the airport". Needless to say this scared me a bit. I wound up not going for other reasons do to the outfitter and non-hunter that I was bringing..LOL

I need to ask... Will it be safe for a Caucasian to travel into SA next year?
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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2008, 10:22:00 PM »
John, "safe" is a relative term, and who know how safe it will be in South Africa next year? It wasn't all that great last year!

I was last in SA in April of 2007. Now, I've knocked around all of sub-Saharan Africa for many years, mostly traveling on my own. Last year I had one of my hunting buddies, Jim, along with me, and I still didn't feel all that safe even then; especially in the urban areas.

Jim and I were there mainly to visit my old Amigo (and the PH I've both hunted with and guided for) Gordon Cormack, who was terminally ill. We spent a few days with Gordon in Howick; a semi-rural community considered among the safer ones; before taking Gordon on what proved to be his list trip out bush. Gordon's car was stolen the day before we arrived in Howick (and never recovered); and shortly before our arrival the local taxidermist there (a very nice chap; an Aussie, living and working in Howick) was robbed when a car load of armed men rammed through his shop's security gate, shot him and a PH who was there to drop off his client's trophies (neither was fatally hit) and took the payroll he had just picked up at the bank, so he could pay his workers. Probably all that saved their lives is that the PH was armed, and returned fire, killing one of the five robbers and wounding another. The wounded robber and the three others escaped, never to be apprehended. The dead one didn't get away. An ambulance got there fairly quickly (from about a mile away), but it took over four hours for the police to arrive. The police station is located about midway between the shop and the hospital.

Bottom line, I do not recommend that anyone not fully aware of the dangers travel around South Africa on their own. If you're part of a larger group of hunters, you'll be a bit safer, as long as you stay together.

If you're going on a hunt I would recommend that you have your PH be there to meet you at the airport and take you directly out to camp. After the hunt he should take you directly back to the airport and see you safely onto the plane. That's the procedure we had to adopt for all of our hunting clients flying into Zimbabwe, as the situation there disintegrated. It's the safest procedure, and reduces the likelihood of a problem. Next best would be as you described; airport to the airport hotel and wait IN the hotel for your PH to collect you.

Some will say it's perfectly safe to travel in South Africa, and that they have had no problems. Between 1999 and 2001 I survived three attempted armed robberies in Africa (only because I was ALERT and WELL ARMED myself), and two of those occurred while I was in South Africa - and that doesn't include the loss of my passport, credit cards and a bunch of cash to a pickpocket while I was INSIDE the J'Burg airport to drop off some folks I'd driven down from Zim, for their return flight to the States!

I fear that the situation will get much worse long before it starts to get better. I'm not saying to not go, but IF you are going just go as safely as you can; and the sooner you go the safer it's likely to be.

Ed
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Offline Brent Hill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2008, 09:26:00 AM »
This summer, our tour guide for Pretoria said that there would be a tribal war in SFA very soon over the policies enacted by SFA's ruling tribe.  The name of this tribe escapes me but the guide specifically stated that it was Nelson Mandela's tribe and this tribe routinely furthered its own interests through government means over the interests of the other tribes.  He further stated sarcastically that in the dictionary under the term corruption, there was a picture of an african politician.  This individual also went into painstaking detail regarding the tribal abuses I mentioned above regarding SFA's affirmative action programs.  Now to be fair, the guide did have a dog in the fight, he was not member of Nelson's tribe but he was Zulu.   I agree with the good doctor.  We did not leave our guide's sight with exception to my wive's shopping and some guided trips in Joberg.  Next time, I will be even more careful and skip all side trips and have my guide pick us up at the airport.  Any new updates ?  I haven't heard back from the Frosts since 2 days ago.   Thanks,  Bhill

Offline IndianaBowman

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2008, 01:43:00 PM »
My wife and I just returned from a trip to South Africa in July.  We took all the precautions and didn't have any issues. However, their way of driving on the shoulder and allowing others to pass has much to be desired. We came upon an accident scene where a vehicle rolled over. The driver was ejected and obviously dead. A few cars stopped but no one was even near the guy who was ejected. Our PH notified authorities at the next toll station, but he would not stop to help - I guess because he didn't feel it would be safe for us. The bottomline impression I got was that life doesn't hold quite the same value in South Africa as it does in the US. It may be the aids epidemic or the historical warring - but it did feel different.

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2008, 05:38:00 PM »
Here’s a comparison of the crime rate for some of the Africa countries for 1997 (newest I could find), per Interpol statistics. What I can tell you from my own trips; it’s far worse than this now! Do take all possible security precautions on your trips, and try to keep abreast of the rapidly changing political situation. It will have an effect on your personal security.

"SOUTH AFRICA COMPARED

By global standards, South Africa has extraordinary high levels of violent crime, according to 1997 Interpol statistics.2 In 1997, South Africa had the highest per capita rates of murder and rape, the second highest rate of robbery and violent theft (after the Bahamas), and the fourth highest rates of serious assault and sexual offences, of the 110 countries with crime levels listed by Interpol.3

South Africa’s per capita levels of property-related crime, commercial crime and drug-related offences were surpassed by a number of other countries, including numerous developed countries. South Africa’s property crime levels compare favourably with those of many developed countries if measured on a per capita basis. However, a better indication of property crime is to measure it in relation to the number of units of property.

For example, in 1997 some 248 cars were stolen per 100 000 people in South Africa. In France, 552 cars were stolen per 100 000 of the population. There are, however, about seven times as many cars on the roads of France than in South Africa (and probably even more if the cars from other European countries which travel through France every year are taken into account). This means that the chance of a car being stolen in South Africa is twice as high compared to France. Measured in this way, South Africa’s vehicle theft levels are not as favourable as Interpol’s figures indicate.

The 1997 Interpol report provides crime data for nine sub-Saharan countries only (including South Africa). The per capita crime rate for the major violent crimes of murder, rape, and robbery and violent theft was substantially higher in South Africa than in the other eight sub-Saharan countries. South Africa also had the highest per capita serious assault rate (541 per 100 000 of the population), but this was closely followed by Namibia (497 per 100 000)."

Ed
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Offline Sant-Ravenhill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2008, 08:07:00 PM »
Mr.Magoo,

From your posts, I will venture that you are one that thinks the whites in Zimbabwe are getting their just desserts, in having their homes and farms taken.

From all my "reading" I am sadly sure that South Africa will suffer the same land grab fate.

Offline Brent Hill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2008, 09:15:00 AM »
And that land grab has done so much for other African countries !   Once self sufficient countries  who often exported the excess food to other countries for profit have been reduced to buying what import scraps of food are left at ridicules prices.  Why ?   Because like in Zim, the only people who were able to effectively farm, the whites who did it for generations, were either kicked or killed, and the land was redistributed to the ruling party's supporters who don't farm or care to learn.   A great plan that has repeatedly failed Africa but is repeatedly relied upon but up and coming african leaders.  
I know that I'm alittle obsessed over this but I really fell  in love with that continent after my hunt.  Bhill

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2008, 01:59:00 PM »
Brent, I understand exactly what you're saying. My first trip was in 1975, and I returned many times before I retired and moved there to live. For over 30 years I have been watching as a once vibrant, strong and health Lady Africa slowly dies from the spreading cancers of socialism, tribal conflict, greed and corruption; her demise hastened by the misguided, rampant liberalism of the Western World.

It is already far too late for one to meet who she once was, but even a bedside visit still touches; and one comes away with a sense of the grandeur she once held. I feel for all those future generations who will never know her touch on their lives.

Ed
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Offline John3

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2008, 11:14:00 PM »
I was planning on going to SA in 2010... I will admit this is scary. I can't imagine anything worse than getting in "trouble" eight thousand miles from home. We will have to see what developes; maybe I will stay in North America.


John III
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Offline Brent Hill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2008, 11:12:00 AM »
Don't give up yet.  Mr. frost said that numerous bowhunting outfits were less than exceptional but he did state that many in his business did run excellent and ethical operations.  Upon further questioning  (I'm a lawyer), hestated that Dries Visser which was near his camp ran an excellent bowhunting operation.  At that point, I was very pleased with his operation and did not have any inclination to hunt with anyone else.  I was actually impressed that he would recommend one of his competitors.  Now I may be considering Vissre's camp in Namibia.  I haven't given up on sfa for 2010.  As far as I know, Mbeki hasn't been killed yet and that there appears to be somewhat of a peaceful transfer of power.  In addition, land hasn't been taken yet.  However, if any of thoes two possibilities occur, I will be changing my plans.  I don't know.  Time will tell.

Offline Brent Hill

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2008, 11:50:00 AM »
I'm sorry, I hit a wrong button and this posted.  Dr. Ashby or anyone lese, what do think of Namibia?   Side note to the good doctor.  Its been a real pleasure reading all of your studies on arrow penetration.  Thanks for all of your work.  Bhill

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2008, 02:15:00 PM »
Brent, it's likely that Namibia will follow South Africa; politically.

Namibia has  a number of very large ranches for hunting; and some still have a lot of free ranging indigenous game. I prefer to stalk when hunting, and am not a big fan of hunting the blinds so commonly used in SA. Because of that, as a general rule I preferred much of Namibia to most of the SA game farms.

You are doing things right; if you are able to go, go soon and go often; I don't think it will be that long before you'll be looking back saying "I wish ..".

Thanks for the kind words on the Study. Much appreciated.

Ed
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Offline tradtusker

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2008, 04:02:00 AM »
Brent land has been taken in South Africa!!!

there's a lot the press keeps from everyone.

Namibia will go the same way there is a push for land redistribution and to be honest not much has been done since independence.

Beautiful place though as is most of southern Africa, really like Namibia and as Ed mentioned the hunting is a bit better guides will give you plenty of freedom to hunt the way you want and they are pretty open to suggestions,

better then the business operation in SA where you can sit in a box with four arrows and a radio and everything you shoot(not hunt) is most likely a trophy because it was put there at the start of the season, waterhole are closed at night and there is a nice bale of feed out side your window that the animals have to eat from because the place is overstocked and overgrazed.

the National parks are now Very expensive in Namibia there is a price for locals which even they can not afford, then a price for south Africans and then when a good old american (or foreigner) walks in and says "how much?" you most well just bend over right there.
There is more to the Hunt.. then the Horns

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Andy Ivy

Offline Lucas K

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Re: Red Flags Everywhere
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2008, 12:21:00 PM »
Is there any militancy among the white population in South Africa? I see that demographically, they make up between 10 and 15% of the population, only two groups compose larger percentages… by working together it seem difficult to force redistribution. Even at the height of the population, whites in Zim never made up more than 7-8%
Lucas
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