Arrow weight vs speed for Africa

[Margly]

Hi!
I`m going to SA in August and are working on my arrows for the trip. I`m going to shoot a 56@28" Firefly longbow and a BW PMA 50@28" and here is  my challenge. So far it seems like I can use the same arrows for both bows. My wood arrows weights in with a 150 grains silverflame 672-676 grains and my carbons weights in for 542-545 grains with the same silvertip(with weight tubes). What do you Tradgangers advise? Woods with more weight and less speed or carbons with less weight and more speed. I`ve not chronoed yet but with the difference in these weights I guess the speed is the issue. By the way I’m going to hunt Impala, warthog, Kudu, Blesbok, Red Hartebeest etc.
My shooting range is out to ca. 20 yards
Margly

[robtattoo]

Either will work. Personally, I'd take whichever you shoot the most accurately & consistently.

For every animal you've listed, the carbons will work a treat & the extra few FPS will make a world of difference for warthog & Impala. If you've never seen either of these beasties startled, you'll never believe how quick they are.

Yep, I'd go with the carbons.

[storm5]

I'd go with the carbons too

[Margly]

Yep I also see lot of benefits with the carbons so I’ll shoot them thru a chrono and see what happens  
Margly

[ozy clint]

i guess the carbons are skinner too which may make up for some of the extra weight the woods have, penetration wise.

maybe??

[graybark uk]

ronnie im useing corbons to ,my arrows weigh between 560 & 600gn .the 560`s do 175fps out of my 55# graybark , mind you if bw cant fix the delamination thats just happend to my top limb ill be throwing em !!!!  woods are n ice but carbon`s work better ,imo

[Lonesome Wind]

Shoot whatever you're most comfortable with.
I shot 990gr woods out of a 61# bow when I went last & didn't see the slow speed as any disadvantage. That was the set-up I shot well so that's what I shot.
 If you put the arrow in the wrong place the animal won't care how fast it was going.    

[tradtusker]

takes the ones you shoot best both will work

[Brent Hill]

Last year, I used a 52 lb psa with gt carbons weighing 540 and did fine.  But I felt very comfortable with that setup and had great arrow flight.  Like tradtusker and lw said, shoot the setup that does it for you.  Forget the  details and hunt.  You are going to love it.  Bhill

[tiur]

Use the carbon , drop the tubes add weight to front.
This will change spine, you will need them a bit stiffer. Higher FOC does give you better penetration.
Good luck.
ASL

[jonsimoneau]

I think you will be Ok, but It would not hurt to add a little weight up front.  I think the first time I went my carbons weighed 650 grains, and the second time they were right near 700 grains.  I normally got passthroughs on every thing I shot.  In fact the only animal I did not get a passthrough was a huge Eland bull.  But it did not matter much because he only went 40 yards, and hit the ground with a huge THUD, with dust flying everywhere.  That was with a 55lb. recurve.  First year I hunted with a 52lber and had no problems.

[BowMIke]

I would shoot Beman Classic MFX 400's with a 100 grain brass insert. With the Silverflame you should weigh at least 580 grains at 29" arrow. I wish I was going along! Have a grat hunt.

[Margly]

Thanks guys!
Hi John nice to see on the TG
Right now i`m in to tuning, changing weights and more tuning(probably a common thing waiting for the departure day)    
I also got an extra set of limbs for my longbow in 46# and they are smooth and fast so i`m testing out some weights for these limbs to. I`ll shoot it thru the chrono and read some results. (feel that my accuracy is highly better with the 46# than the 56# with the same riser) So i do have to calculate some fp-lb and find out what is going to be the second bow.
Margly

[caneycreek]

I'd shoot the heavier arrow.

[Ragnarok Forge]

When I shoot a 550 grain arrow and a 650 grain arrow at 20 yards, I look at the same spot.  The heavier arrows group 2 inches lower than the light ones.  I don't really think that you need to be worried about weight as it affects arrow drop at 20 yards unless you really adjust your weight up a lot. If you were shooting 30+ it would be a much more important factor.    

Read thru the 2008 Ashby method for optimizing your arrows.  It will really help you understand what you need to get great penetration.  At 20 yards and less you can shoot 1,000 grain arrow.  So long as you practice until you can look at the target and hit where your looking, arrow trajectory won't matter a bit.

If it was me I would have a 600 to 650 grain arrow with 20% + FOC.  That arrow will kill everything you plan to shoot at in SA.  Good luck and let us know how the hunt and arrow process goes.

[Margly]

Hi!
When I went down to SA in August I did bring my Black Widow PMA 50@28 and my Gold Tips 5575 weighted in at 540 gn. They did fly like darts BUT, after seeing the speed/jumpiness and toughness of the animals and talking to my PH who have great experience in bowhunting. I decided to not hunt big animals with this setup!
Reason: for me it seems to light for the animals I was hunting for, and after I did see a Impala actually almost string jumped my compound at 16 yards (my setup has a speed of 280 fps) I was shocked      
The Impala stood broadside and I aimed for the crease behind the front leg and when I released, the Impala reacted with a ducking and I spined it. Well it did fall straight down and everything went well, but that experience did something with the confidence I had in my traditional setup.

So after talking a lot with my friend Nathan(aka buejeger) and the PH. I decided to not go for big animals with my BW.

But after I have been there and think about it in retrospective I do believe it is possible to hunt with the setup, but I think you have very small margins for making clean kills.

So with that in mind I have changed my setup as follows:


I have just ordered a new Black Douglas super Swift with hex V limbs in 66@30(My drawlength has increased) and think this bow will do the trick on any of my planned animals.

I`m building some new arrows now for the next Africa hunt and I think I`ll build two different set of arrows.

Both arrows will have a foc over 20%

The first one will be made with Impala, warthog sized animals in mind and need max speed.
So If I could make one around 650 gn with a fps around 185+ I think I will be satisfied.

The second arrow will be made for Eland, Kudubull, Zebra in mind and here I`ll need some heavy equipment. I`ll go for a arrow weighted in around 850 gn and a speed +175 fps.

Right now I`m building some Easton fmj cut to 31" and 32" in 340, 300 and will also test out some gold tips.

Broadheads for these set ups will probably be the Nanook from Alaskan bowhunting supply, Silver Flames and some Woodsman Elite.

Maybe these two set ups will be overkill but for my own confidence when I`m going after these tough animals I`d rather be sure.

As I did write above I decided not for hunting big game so here`s what I got      
 
   


Margly

[Johan van Niekerk]

No idea what you ended up taking BUT I would advise anyone in future with the same question to go heavier. The extra few fps will make ZERO difference on either warthog or impala. The added quietness of heavier arrows might though. If either of these animals "stringjump" no tradbow on earth would be fast enough. I've seen warthog that was perfectly positioned for a shot at 15 meters (18 yards?) jump a top of the line compound bow (chronographed @ 270 fps with the arrows used) effortlessly. The arrow was still in the air by the time the pig turned around and ran about 5 ft! Impala have even faster reflexes and neither of these are a patch on the common duiker  

The way to not get stringjumped is quite simply for the animals to not get a fright. This means, a. Only shoot if you can see it is not tense and totally unaware of you. b. go quiet! real quiet! Silent release, heavy arrows, no unnatural clicking/metallic sounds etc.

Feathers seem to spook them much less than plastic vanes. Obviously closer shots give them less time to react...

[Ragnarok Forge]

I have watched a couple of trad hunting videos made in Africa and noticed that very quiet longbow and recurves did hot trigger the string jumping that compounds did.  The two animals that did string jump did so delayed enough that the arrows hit the kill zones anyway.

Heavy arrows and a quiet bow seem to be the ticket for jumpy animals.

[Richie Nell]

Clay,
"Heavy arrows and a quiet bow seem to be the ticket for jumpy animals."

No doubt about it.  

I have started whitetail hunting with 1000 grainers ONLY because they are so stinkin quiet and being quiet is SO stinkin important to shot placement.

I like to drop back to 800 or so gr. for elk.

[eugeneb]

Hi,

I have always been fascinated by the speed vs weight concept ... especially relating to penetration.  I have read numerous articles around people professing KE vs Momentum to be the indicator for penetration.  I have read Dr. Asby's research with great appreciation and I lean towards the momentum formula ... nevertheless, using either KE or Momentum as an indicator for best penetration ... results in using the combination of velocity and weight (mass) of an object ... in this case an arrow.  I see many people saying heavier is always better?  I would agree to a certain point ... as prev mentioned weight/mass alone does not depict penetration ... the combo of mass/velocity does.  In my case, I have orderded another compound bow (not yet received and did some planning so long) ... i will use it as an example, the way I figure the best penetration specific to my bow ... taking into account each bow's effiency will differ (i.e. power stroke and how the bow transfers energy to the arrow)  Surely the same logic should apply to trad bows in determining momentum/pentration ... in other words where the bow will deliver optimum.

My bow specs as follow:  IBO=330 fps, #70, 32" dl, 5 grain on string ... I have used 2 different arrow speeds calculators to estimate the speed at various arrow weighs ... took the average speed and calculated the KE and momentum ... this in my opinion is not yet the real world, but gives me an indication (range) where my bow will perform optimum for example around penetration (momentum)  Now depending on the species I am hunting I will select the approriate arrow weight/velocity combo i.e. warthog and impala I will defintely not use the 700 grain arrow ... I guess my question is ... is heavier always better?  For me it is striking the balance between velocity and weight ... e.g. according to the momentum formula my penetration is better with a 700 grain arrow opposed to 1000 grain (obviously all else being equal ... broadhead mech advantage, shaft diameter, eFOC, etc.)

I would appreciate your comments, if my assumptions are correct then more weight does not always equals better ... but for each person to do tests to see where his/her specific bow will deliver best (also assuming each bow's efficiency might be different i.e. different draw lenghts, etc.)

Cheers - Eugene

 

Momentum graph below
 

KE graph below