African Lion with BW recurve

[redant 60/65]

Terry
I think it said,no topics of canned hunts period, so far this dosn't look like a canned hunt. Nice hunt Buff, thanks for sharing.  

[PZee]

If this post was removed, due to the hunt taking place in an enclosed (fenced) area, then every single post about hunting in South Africa would need to be removed! There are no more open areas where animals move freely in South AFrica. Certain antelope might jump fences (6-8ft) but that is about as free as they get. What varies, is the size of the fenced area. The farm this hunt took place on wouldn't be constituted as a canned hunt in South Africa. However, laws are about to be changed. I have now checked the exact acres to hectares calcs and this farm was about 2000hec. In future it would probably only be financially viable for an outfitter to have lions to hunt on a ranch of about 7000hec or more (17000acres). Reasons being a lion will need to be free roaming on a farm for 2 years before it can be hunted, and on a farm this size in this area, a single lion would probably eat 1/4 of the antelope on this farm. Thus making replacing the antelope more expensive than what profits on a lion hunt would be. So government are not making it illegal to hunt lions, just very difficult!

[Ray Hammond]

This thread should not be removed- it expounds on both sides of the argument about the subject...and the overriding interest at TG has always been exchanging ideas and facts on subjects so people can be informed and make up their own mind.

Buff had what he believed was the best experience he could have- in fact, I suspect lion hunting for all practical purposes IS going to go away in future so he may have been grabbing at what might be an unattainable goal, I don't know, but some thought it was great, I and others expressed concerns- not so much about this particular hunt but of what implications the style of the hunt will have on the potentiality for future hunts -and the message sent by this and other similar hunts.

I think removing it would be more censorship than it would be adhering to the rules of the site.

[Ben Maher]

"I and others expressed concerns- not so much about this particular hunt but of what implications the style of the hunt will have on the potentiality for future hunts -and the message sent by this and other similar hunts."


Well put Ray . I have some reservations about the topic in general , not so much in Buff's particular hunt itself . I still have those same concerns but have learnt some new things sbout the situation in South Africa that don't alter my feelings towards anything " canned " but as to the financial/ecological considerations that may be affecting decision making in S.A.

Whilst as a sport , and perhaps more importantly a lifestyle for some of us , is under attack our discussion and debate is important within our own ranks . And no you can't police ethics or morals  but without our self imposed guidelines , " other " people will certainly legislate against them .
Ben

[gregg dudley]

Interesting thread.  I thought Buff did a great job laying out the parameters in his initial post.  I was fascinated by the story.  I don't know anything about lions or hunting in Africa.  Frankly I was under the impression that most hunts over there were behind a game fence due to established game management practices, widespread poaching, and animals being considered a commodity.  

A local guy just came back from a trip to Mexico where he reportedly paid $20,000 to kill a monster buck behind a high fence.  That story turned me off completely.  Perhaps it is the money, perhaps it is the fact that whitetails are abundant and readily available for fair chase, or perhaps it is the fact that I hunt whitetails by traditional means.

On the other hand, this story did not offend me and I am not sure why.  Perhaps it is because I have enjoyed Buff's posts in the past and have formed a positive impression of him.  Perhaps it is because I don't know anything about lion hunting.  Perhaps it is because he outlined the process that he went through to secure an opportunity for hunting a lion which is something that was important to him and felt like this was his best opportunity.

I don't really agree with the recent trend to afford everyone the carte blanche opportunity to establish an individual code of ethics, but I think we should be very careful about applying regional or provincially based perspectives to world-wide scenarios.  The barnyard references earlier in this thread are a prime example.  Before I started frequenting tradgang I would have never imagined that camels, goats, donkeys, feral cattle and other such animals were hunted in other parts of the world.

Congratulations, Buff on taking your lion.   The biggest trophy of the deal may be the conversation that has resulted.

[Texas Tinman]

Way to go, buddy....  

[BUFF]

Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
.

Buff had what he believed was the best experience he could have- in fact, I suspect lion hunting for all practical purposes IS going to go away in future so he may have been grabbing at what might be an unattainable goal,

Bingo.... That is what I love about this site. We can agree to disagree with out it turning nasty.
The best thing about this entire thread is that Ray thought he had a lead on a free range LIon. It did not pan out, like so many others I chased over the 3 years BUT he did find me someone that can set me up to hunt Elephant in 2011

[Ben Maher]

Buff ... off topic i know but where did you get that quiver ? it is beautiful .

Ben

[BUFF]

Originally posted by bmlongshot73:
Buff ... off topic i know but where did you get that quiver ? it is beautiful .

Ben

I had the back skin from a Zebra I shot in 2007. I took a quiver that I had bought from 3 rivers down to a local saddle shop for a pattern and had him make it for me. It was the first one he had ever done but it turned out nice

[Ben Maher]

thanks mate ,
Might have to get me to Africa and chasing zebra's then eh ?
And warthog , and impala and .....

BEN

[chrisg]

Pzee, you have put it all in perspective very eloquently, spot on in fact. Gregg also raised a very important point about applying local or regional perspectives to global situations. The simple truth is that SA is a fenced place. Most plains game ranches are large enough for this to be a non issue but will still need management. For what it's worth the Kruger park is 2,2 million hectares and they manage their game numbers. The bigger the area the harder to find and shoot the animal. Like wise most all game farms in SA will buy in stock to replenish numbers, this is a normal part of the industry. With the lion issue as Pzee says lions eat a lot, like a prime male can eat up to 25 percent of their own body weight at a sitting! Sustaining a lion until it is big enough to be a trophy thus becomes a huge expense, ergo lions are bought in shortly before the hunt and 'released' into whatever size area is acceptable. The lioness buff shot was certainly raised to be hunted. By the way the Pilanesberg game reserve has recently spent several million on restocking plains game to balance LSUs and to replace game eaten by their lions, they have also had to shoot out or remove about forty percent of those lions for the reasons Pzee said, too many and gene pool management. Pilanesberg is well over 100 000 acres.There is no free ranging game in SA in huntable numbers. This is not to say there are no 'hunting opportunities' in SA. There are and the many thousands of successful hunts held here every year are testament to that. Yes they take place on a game farm, but that is not like shooting game in a corral, there is a difference. I would not shoot a lion personally but that is my own choice. I am not a trophy hunter and I hunt for meat.
chrisg

[hunt it]

Lot of good points brought forward on this one. Every one of us has a different opinion of what is ok and not. Many years ago, I harvested wild boar in Michigan and Ontario on preserves with high fences around them. We never called it hunting but rather reffered to it as harvesting good BBQ meat and a good time for the guys over a weekend. I do not consider killing inside enclosed areas of any size as hunting and that's my own standard. In many parts of the world the only hunting that exists is on private reserves/conservancies/ranches the game in many cases is free ranging and not enclosed. So don't judge all fancy ranches as high fenced because not all are. The high fence debate has gone on for years and will never end in my opinion. How big a piece of land is ok? What species are ok on what size of property? What type of fence is ok and what is not? Each must be their own judge and set our own standards. What if I invite you to an island 10 miles offshore off Africa to hunt lions. Island is six miles long three miles wide just crawling with lions, no fences just wild lions. You coming??? Tell me what the difference is between that and a ranch in S. Africa six miles long and three miles wide with a fence around it??? Tough one eh! Only you can decide for your self.

Mr. Ray,
The things you mention your neighbour/others doing as far as I can see are all illegal activities and I'd be the first to turn in the offender myself. Marty's hunt was not illegal by any terms. Not your thing, not my thing but not illegal. My point is that everyday people pursue and kill game in many ways that might not be ok in everyone's eyes. You have probably chased hogs with dogs and a knife at some point - I have. Many in our ranks would see this somewhat barbaric and disgusting if they saw what happened. The bunny huggers would castrate us for it quite proudly. My point being is that I made the choice to do it and forced no one to come along. I only have to live with myself for my actions. Marty's a big boy and I don't think anyone made him do this. He would not have done it if it was not something he could live with. We may not all see it as ok, but he was well within the law and his right to do so, so why speak negativly of it? I know there is many fine Trad Gang members that have hunted Mt. Lion and shot one out of a tree. Not my thing but I wilst not judge them based on those actions and hope they not judge me based on killing a hog with a knife! It is sufficient I believe to state it's not your thing.

As for the united point. I have heard the 2nd Amendment argument and the hunting rights argument from my US friends way too many times. Let me tell you, coming from a bigger country with less people and way less hunters than USA. Stand divided and you will be conquered sooner or later my friend. Been there done that seen it and lost it my friend. Don't kid yourselves the antis out number all of us any day of the week. Don't ever forget that, please.

[Ryan High]

Wow what a story! Way to go!

[Ray Hammond]

Huntit,

I didn't intend for the use of the anecdote about not dealing with neighbors transgressions to imply this was illegal- although it likely will be in the future it's not today.

What I meant for people to take away from that was that its our responsibility to speak up- this isn't a question of ETHICS- its a question of whether we will CONTINUE to be able to hunt.

If you get nothing else from my conversations understand THIS-  we are a fringe group- ALL HUNTERS.  Anti hunters are a fringe group- the 80% in the middle don't mind us at the moment- but they do NOT see fine distinctions like 80 acres vs 500 acres vs 5000 acres. Hunting inside a fence that covers 50000 acres won't be seen any differently than one that surrounds 50 when these people who will get to decide our future are given the choice of voting for us to keep hunting or to be stopped.

I will NOT stand united with anyone who thinks we can continue checking animals off a list by any means legal (helicopter, vehicles, fenced hunts)and not eventually pay the price- probably not ME, and maybe not YOU- but certainly my grandkids will be forced to.

Expediency, for any reason, is the antithesis of what we should be about. Doing it the hard way isn't just a slogan for some boob on TV- it's the real deal, buddy. If that's not what we're about then the only people we are fooling is ourselves.

I had a trip scheduled to Africa 3 years ago, to an 80 square mile fenced operation. I told everyone I canceled because of the economic situation to avoid offending some by stating the real reason- cowardice on my part.

I canceled the trip and lost my deposit because I couldn't reconcile my belief that fences are not good for the future of hunting in general and certainly for those of us who say we're doing it the hard way.

We're supposed to be more concerned about "HOW" we get it done, than "WHETHER" we get it done- right?

Killing something with a firearm would be the dullest thing going for someone who has taken game with a bow. Why would this be any different.

Sort of like a baseball record, on steroids.

[OBXarcher]

Buff, great hunt and you should be proud of your hunt.

I don't call 8 square miles a canned hunt by any means. That cat could have run for miles.

[Wolfie2nd]

Congrats!!!
We all gotta stick together!!

[maxfit]

Terry
pm sent..
Thanks

[DesertDude]

First off Congrats Marty.... This post really has me thinking....I have a chance to move to Texas.

[Zenzele]

Well done Marty, She certainly is a beautiful specimen! Good debate everyone, as Pzee and ChrisG said - Lion hunting isn't illegal yet, just much much harder for the farm owners to setup. Not only is keeping a Lion for two years expensive but think of the license fee's etc...  Lions are definatly struggling to survive in Africa in comparatively small pockets of land separated, not only physically but genetically. Me thinks they (Lions) are going the way of the Dodo - hopefully not in our lifetime.

[tradtusker]

Some interesting points

 

Originally posted by gregg dudley:
  I don't know anything about lions or hunting in Africa.  Frankly I was under the impression that most hunts over there were behind a game fence due to established game management practices, widespread poaching, and animals being considered a commodity.  
 

Gregg im impressed.

Ray your right in the point that hunters did bring it upon themselves i should have worded that differently. But i think you misunderstand the fence issues in Southern Africa.

What im not worried about here is what one guys thinks is Right over the next guy, "Ethics".
What im concerned about is the Welfare and sustainable future of our environment and wildlife, in this particular thread, Lions! And in Rays case the effect it will have on our future as hunters.

some facts
There are more animals, Across the board (Bar a few) in Southern Africa today, then there have ever been!    Why?

My Concern is that if lion hunting is no longer, lions are no longer! lions are there now because they have a value to the farmers/landowners, if its starts costing them more in eaten game then in trophy fees there will be no incentive to have them on the property's, and the numbers will decline quickly. I may not agree with it but i know whats keeping their numbers there.

The fenced Issue i find interesting in the way people understand, probably because most of the guys have never even been to Southern Africa or had any hands on involvement with the issues, challenges in land ownership and management faced out there!  What i also find interesting is how this Lion Topic has raise questions and concerns over all the other posts on Africa.
 Southern Africa is fenced…ALL OF IT!!! And most of the plains game shot in regards to bowhunters, are shot out of hides, over water holes or feed…   why has this been painted different? if it was in a Tiny "pen", sure! but with the farms as big as some of them are over there i don't see your argument. As for the point on Animals being 'easier to kill' on a Big fenced property out there, your mistaken!

the reason there is MORE game now then there has ever been is because of fences and because the game has a value, you also cannot compare the fact that South Africa is fenced compared to your Countries, they are very different! You know that.
 "There are more huntable species in South Africa than any other Country"!!!, consider that.
 Not only is just the wildlife so diverse, there is a huge complicated fragile relationship within the ecosystem and its even more fragile relationship with man. A lot of the issues you could not even comprehend in the States or Australia because they do not exist for you. And im happy you do not have to fence everything.

How many Antelope species do you have in your continent?
 Africa has 71 last time I checked, Thats antelope species alone!  Not to mention the huge rage of predators that prey upon them, how about large destructive populations of people that poach? Cut down every tree for firewood, have NO sustainable management mindset. The Fences are not just there to keep the animals in, they are there to protect the wildlife and environment, fences are there because hunters have given our wildlife a value and they are willing to put the money on the table for it, and therefore given land owners the incentive to protect them, without fences the high population of game WOULD NOT EXSIST!   Governments are different, laws are different, people are different and the management challenges we face between Man, the Animals and the Habitat are far more complex then those of other countries.

Its like there's higher than thou conscience thats getting pushed, the world is not perfect we have what we have and we'r working with it.

Our family has been involved in Wildlife management, Grassland science and Sustainable habitat management for generations, in South Africa, the situation there is what it is, we have to work with what we have.

There is a Lot of things that i don't agree with as far as hunting across the world, but iv put aside "perfect world" and swallowed it for the "real world"
And work with what we have now knowing the alternatives we have are far more destructive.