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Author Topic: African Lion with BW recurve  (Read 13602 times)

Offline killinstuff

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2010, 07:39:00 AM »
If that cat has claws, teeth and lived by catching and eating live critters in the fenced area, that's a wild animal. Nice Lion Buff.
lll

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2010, 09:28:00 AM »
I guess we're going to leave it here, Andy.

I am unconcerned about what is legal

I don't care about antelope and how many we have, or how great the wildlife programs are and how well they've done at keeping species alive and vibrant.

All of that is irrelevant to my concern.

Apparently I am incapable of enough eloquence to get my point across, so beyond this I'll not comment longer because I will begin to sound like a broken record.

There are other countries in Africa where lions do roam free and prior to right now a hunt in one of those countries could have been planned- right at the moment even there we now see restrictions on them....in fact, the restrictions are due to OVERHARVEST causing a lack of adult lions, according to the PH's I am talking with.

What I am saying is that at some point we must begin deciding that just because the law doesn't rule something out, we still ought to think twice about doing it.(it makes no difference if your only intent is for the fence to keep poachers out- it STILL keeps animals inside)

The subtle distinctions we are very comfortable with will be LOST in the minds of non-hunters. To them, a fence is a fence- and they understand what fences do- they keep things out AND they keep things in. Just ask any dog owner(we have 90 million dog owners in this continent and they'll tell you- you idjit, the fence keeps my dog from running off!)

Bear baiting does make sense to us- if your goal is to make certain you are not killing a female with cubs and that's typically the reason for baiting.

Chasing mountain lions with dogs makes sense to us- beyond the fact you'd probably never SEE a mt lion on foot by yourself within shooting range with a bow- it also allows you to selectively take the males or older specimens or pull your dogs off and go to another track.

But lions being bred in an enclosure for one purpose- to be killed- by being thrown into another enclosure a few days weeks or months prior to the "hunt" happening- does that sound like what we ought to be about, whether its legal or not?

There was a guy who was going to fence in areas around resorts all over the country, bring in "celebrity" hunters to kill the bucks on TV on a circuit, and have a NASCAR or PGA for buck hunting- he even talked about using darts and releasing the deer when people began raising concerns.

The outcry here was amazing. How much different are these penned lion hunts than what this fellow was attempting to do here in the states? the only thing missing are the bleachers and live cams.

If success is the only thing that drives us, how do we reconcile that with limiting our ability to take game by using a weapon with strict limitations?

Remove fair chase and we begin down a road that will eventually lead to a place not many of us will recognize or like.

what we do individually affects us all. Because the world is truly a "global village" now, what happens in the far reaches of Australia can have an impact on what happens here, or in England- anywhere.

Yes, our individual circumstances are different- It's very interesting to me that in America our forefathers were able to revitalize our wildlife-in the face of the same issues you have in Africa- subsistence hunting and market hunting- WITHOUT the use of fences.. It can be done.

"the true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport."   - Saxton Pope

I respect your right to feel the way you do- but I think in the long run its the wrong direction if our goal is for those who comes after us to enjoy the same privilege we have- to go afield and chase animals with stick and string- 'with a heart for any fate.'

Good hunting to all of you.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline tradtusker

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2010, 02:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
I guess we're going to leave it here, Andy.

 "according to the PH's I am talking with"
 
I respectfully agree we should leave it here, we'r not going to get anywhere constructive here with that.
There is more to the Hunt.. then the Horns

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Andy Ivy

Offline kestimator

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2010, 02:39:00 PM »
There have been quite a few differing intelligent points and questions raised and answered here.  Well done guys on keeping it fairly civil!  Especially on such a touchy subject.  
For me hunting is very personal.  As I have evolved in my pursuit and love of the outdoors, so have some of my tactics and choices.  I think that we should all be free to seek and find what is right for each of us.
The Buff that I "know" through his writings, book, and forum participation has always shown himself to be a fun-loving responsible outdoorsman.  A man that can tell a great story, yet never grandizes himself as some conqueror of nature.  I appreciate Buff sharing his adventure.  I look forward to the next one!
Have a nice day!
Kevin

Offline TxAg

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2010, 06:54:00 PM »
I think tradtusker and kestimator made two very good posts....much better than I could've said it.

Offline SilentT

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2010, 06:59:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by killinstuff:
If that cat has claws, teeth and lived by catching and eating live critters in the fenced area, that's a wild animal. Nice Lion Buff.
That's the issue.  Not the fence itself.  As stated, almost all of SA is fenced.  Large areas.  

The problem a lot of people have with these lions is that they are raised in pens, fed donkey pieces and game farm meat, then driven out and released at the hunting area a week prior to the hunt.  I don't have a problem with it as long as the hunter knows what he is getting into. I think it's safe to say that most do.

Offline DG2

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2010, 10:55:00 AM »
I know a few guys who have shot lions in SA. Shots were taken from 8-9 yards. Talk about wild animals!

Regarding this fence issue, the smallest fenced area I have hunted was propably 3-4 acres and it was impossible to get close to animals. Difficultness is really not an argument to justify anything in this case.

Over the years I think have seen all possible (unethical to me) hunting practises. Most people just want to shoot something, and I have never critized anybody doing this as long as they know what they are doing. Just not my thing.

Offline BUFF

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2010, 01:28:00 PM »
well it has run 6 pages deep and never turned Nasty. It makes me proud to be part of this site.
Some liked the story others didn't but nobody started bashing each other. Ray didn't care for my hunt but still took the time to help me set up a Elephant hunt. Great folk hanging out here

Online Danny Rowan

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2010, 06:40:00 PM »
"When shooting instinctivly,it matters not which eye is dominant"

Jay Kidwell and Glenn St. Charles

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Offline JoeM

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2010, 07:10:00 PM »
:eek:     :eek:    :notworthy:    :eek:    :eek:
"...there are no words that can tell the hidden spirit of the wilderness, that can reveal its mystery, its melancholy, and its charm."  Teddy Roosevelt

Offline Benny Nganabbarru

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2010, 07:11:00 PM »
Yep, great comment, Marty! It actually generated a good discussion, and was quite educational, too. All the very best to you when you hunt that ele! Cheers, Ben
TGMM - Family of the Bow

Offline Jesse Minish

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2010, 10:08:00 PM »
Congrats on the lion Buff!

Offline Mike Brown

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2010, 10:12:00 PM »
I have mixed feelings about hunting behind fences.  I have hunted high fenced exotics here in Texas because I will never be able to hunt these animals in their native areas.

I have not hunted whitetails behind game fences because I can readily hunt them else where.

I try to hunt large acrages to make the hunt fair chase.  Some believe that any sized fence is too small.  I remember a similiar discussion years ago on this site where someone was against hunting behind fences no matter the size.  He did however have no problem hunting on an island so go figure.

I fully understand the way that the antis use high fences against us but I have a problem caving in to them even on this issue though I wish we could determine how small an area has to be and how wild an animal has to be to be considered a "canned" hunt.

Buff's cat had 5000 acres to escape in.  Buff's cat had real teeth and claws.  There appears to have been no other way for him to full fill his dream.  All I have to say it congratulations and good luck in your future hunts.  Take care.  Mike.

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2010, 11:26:00 PM »
Mike,

the difference between a fenced piece of ground and an island is that the game is free to swim across and go somewhere else any time they like- deer, pigs, even buffalo have no problem crossing wide expanses of water- fresh, or salt- in search of safety or food.

An animal inside a fence? Especially one bred in a smaller enclosure and then released into the larger one specifically for the purpose of getting killed? They're not getting out.

I can certainly understand why the gentleman in your example had no trouble making that distinction.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline LEOPARD

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2010, 11:07:00 AM »
Marty, that's a beautiful lion! Congrats!
Nigel Ivy

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Offline bm22

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2010, 12:16:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
Mike,

the difference between a fenced piece of ground and an island is that the game is free to swim across and go somewhere else any time they like- deer, pigs, even buffalo have no problem crossing wide expanses of water- fresh, or salt- in search of safety or food.
 
that is a joke right!!!!!  I hunt with some guys that lease 800 acres of high fence and 1700 that is high fenced in texas every year they see tons of bucks that have never been seen from before, 5000 acres high fence is plenty to be considered a non canned hunt, the animsl was not in a pen where you could see it the whole time and shoot it from the other side of the fence. Also he mentions there were other lion tracks so that means this lion probably wasnt placed in the pen the day before.
I guess if you cant legally get a permit to hunt free roaming lions with a recurve then we should all just forget our dreams because no matter if we fenced in africa it would still be a canned hunt..... Hey they wouldn't be able to swim to south america and find food and saftey!!!!! You guys crack me up!!!

Congratulations buff on a great HUNT!!!! Hope to see you at chester.
Brandon

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2010, 12:40:00 PM »
No, its not a joke.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Mike Brown

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2010, 03:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Hammond:
[QB] Mike,

the difference between a fenced piece of ground and an island is that the game is free to swim across and go somewhere else any time they like- deer, pigs, even buffalo have no problem crossing wide expanses of water- fresh, or salt- in search of safety or food.


I understand where you are coming from Ray, but the island he was speaking of was Hawaii.  He stated that he would not hunt a fenced in area NO MATTER THE SIZE.  Whether the fence is a fence or the Pacific it is still a fence........

I spoke to a guy once that was hunting a piece of public land outside of Chicago.  He said that the game comission counted 35 or so deer there.  The deer were basically land locked between strip centers and housing developments.  There are many kinds of fences and many shades of gray......

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2010, 01:46:00 PM »
Mike,

I thought we were having a serious discussion.

If someone told you they thought it would be a good idea to jump off the golden gate bridge you'd think they were nuts.

Why then would you listen to and consider someone serious who would tell you they'd NOT hunt an island larger than 3 of our New England states put together because they thought the OCEAN was a fence???
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Nick559

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Re: African Lion with BW recurve
« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2010, 07:49:00 PM »
That's a grat story and a beautiful Widow to go with it.

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