Designing the ultimate wooden bow......

[kyle]

I hope this one goes into the Archives for all to refer back to.  There are great ideas here and its nice to get specs from so many different opinions.  Great topic Mickey!!!

Kyle

[DCM]

Very subtle and long width taper Lennie.  With good osage you don't really need "fades" per se.  If it's 7/8" at the arrow pass you ain't got far to go to get 1 3/8" max width.  With lighter wood you might need as much as 1" diff in width in a transition lenght of as short as 1 1/2" to compensate for that wood's compression weakness.

I don't ever build two bows azacky the same but this pic is as close as I have on handle.

 http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/bcb1.JPG

 http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/bcb2.JPG

[Tom Leemans]

For a composite bow:
(1) Osage with possibly a locust core
(2) 64" NTN
(3) Rigid (prolly)
(4) 4" bulbous handle
(5) 2" fades
(6) Full width to mid limb taper to 1/2" nocks
(7) 1-1/4" wide at fade
(8) Asymetrical (top limb 1-1/2" longer
(9) Semi rounded belly
(10) Bamboo backed
(11) Floppy arrarest
(12) Cow horn overlays
(13) Reflex/Deflex
(14) Spar Urethane finish
(15) Leather wrapped or laced handle (depending on mood)
(16) Flemish string (I like 450+)

Selfbow:
Same basic specs except the limbs may be a bit wider and be, most likely, reflex only. I'd still put cow horn overlays on it for durability. If sinew didn't make this a "composite", I'd back it with sinew (also for durabilty).

and they'd both be around 55#. No more than 60#.

[tom sawyer]

I see what you mean David, you're not really putting a lot of stress into a dead end on those fades.  My problem was on a hickory bow as I recall, and the short fade (1.5") and large change in width (1" to 1.75") probably did contribute to it cracking.

[the Ferret]

David, Lennie..isn't that abrubt change exactly what you would see in a Pyramid style bow? 1 in to 3"? i don't remember seeing particularly long transition area/fades on the pyramids I have seen.

[tom sawyer]

Yep Mickey and you would want to guard against bending into those type of fades I would think.  Not a guaranteed failure but taking a chance on a crack.  A more gradual fade would be more aesthetically pleasing on a wide pyramid.  More of a diamond shape that way.

[the Ferret]

Originally posted by DCM:
[QB] Very subtle and long width taper Lennie.  With good osage you don't really need "fades" per se.  If it's 7/8" at the arrow pass you ain't got far to go to get 1 3/8" max width.

David exactly..in the design I listed going from a 7/8" arrow pass to a 1 1/8" max limb width, there is really no room for a fade it's more a subtle blending from handle to limb. Looks almost like a D bow where the handle and limb are same width, but it's not.

Something not mentioned was handle depth and on the rigid handles I assume most are going for a 1 1/4 to 1 1/2" depth whereas on mine it is more like 3/4"-7/8" depth. Again dropping from a 3/4" depth to a 5/8" limb thickness does not leave any room for a dip, but again a subtle blending of handle and limb.

[tom sawyer]

Mickey other than aesthetics, do you favor this handle style for any functional reasons?  I gotta think the "average" design is a bit more overbuilt for osage, than your narrow limbs.  Guess you're likely to be picking up another couple of inches of working limb with you design.

I'm going more to try and focus more on bendy handle bows myself.  Something I've done little of to date.

[Jim Hamm]

Mickey pestered me till I dropped in and gave my two cents worth :-)

Osage, for durability and resistance to moisture.
70-72" for 29" draw for durability and accuracy.
Narrow limbs, rigid handle, and tiny tips for speed and reducing hand shock.
Flat belly for reduced string follow.
B-50 or if we're gonna be hardcore, linen.
Paraffin finish for max moisture protection.

This is essentially the type of bow I've been using for years, for everything from elk on down. It's the most durable, accurate, forgiving, and lethal, at least for me and the way I hunt....

Jim

[the Ferret]

Thanks Jim    It has been sorta floated around that you purposely whip tiller your bows. Is that true and if so why?

Lennie, I like minimalist equipment, light weight and simple and that design lets me use the least amount of wood unless I went to a straight D bow.It also lets me get away with a shorter piece of wood because 8" is not being used up in handle and fades. The semi bendy handle shoots a little smoother than a straight D. Because it is so narrow, the sinew helps it maintain it's side profile which is basically flat with a little flip at the tips,otherwise it would follow the string at least in the first 1/3 of the limb where Scifres et al are leaving a little extra wood to prevent just that.

[trashwood]

hmmm OK if it has to last five yrs as my only bow I'd have to have a lots of the bow working.

for my 27" draw i'd like a 50#er

bodark

60" ntn

stave from a 12" diameter stove pipe.

1/2" nocks no overlays

1&3/8" wide tapering last 1/3 of limb to nocks.

tuck the handle area in 1/4" to 1&1/8"

tiller with the handle working but not circular.

not fades really and no step upto the handle.  one smooth (more or less) taper from tip to center of bow like some of the east coast bows

i would expect (and accept) 1" to 1&1/2" of set.  I don't want much reflex if bow is to go for 5 yrs hard shooting and hunting.

good ratio on the rings.  stave from the side of log closest to the heart.  I like to have a leggy tree with a 72" run or longer.  I want to stay as far away from the butt and top as I can.  60" right out of the middle.  top of log gets too tension-y and butt of log get to comprasion-y

skinny tips give ya more speed and less hand shock but as less reliable over all.  stiff handle is sweeter shooter but requivers working less limb more and a wider limb.  ya are more likely to work a week spot in a shorter wider working limb.  work more of narrower limb and ya can likely get around weak spots or at leat have fewer of them since ya got a narrower shorter bow.

the thing I want first and for most out of a self bow I gotta shoot for five yrs as my only bow is reliability.  I'd have to go with the Indian bows.  give up a little speed and sweetness for a bow that would be there with what it's got when I need it.  it want be a dog ort a fireball.  solid as a rock

rusty

[trashwood]

Jim's bows look whip tillered but to my eye if ya take away the long stiff mid bow the likmb is tillered evenly stressed the lenght of the limb.  Just looks whipped cause of the long stiff center (but I don't know for sure).

I have made a couple of the Hamm bows and they do have a lot to say for themselves......except they are loooonnnnnggggg! but great shooters.

the bos that I have whip tiller were roman candles.  went like a fire ball for a while but petered out.  maybe i did it wrong.

rusty

[Jim Hamm]

Mickey

I generally make overly long bows, in the 70-74" range. I whip tiller them a bit to make up for all the moving mass in such a long limb. That way, I get the advantage of the length - accurate and forgiving - without the handshock and reduced speed of a really long working limb.

Rusty

Yeah, tips too tiny would be prone to damage when you fall down (which I do pretty regularly) or the tip accidentally hits a branch or the ground during a shot. I'd make pretty robust tips if that was my only bow for five years....

Excellent info in this thread. The overall bowmaking skill level now is just amazing compared to even ten years ago.

Much to learn....

Jim

[mmgrode]

Hey fellas,
    Here's my favorite design at the moment:

1. Hickory
2. 64" ntn
3. rigid
4. 4.5"
5. 3" fades
6. 1.75" from fades to shortly past midlimb and tapering to .75" at nocks
7. 1.75"
8. even length
9. flat belly
10. sturgeon skin(beautiful and durable)
11. leather string arrow rest wrap w/ fur plate
12. no overlays
13. straight profile
14. Spar urethane or polyurethane except on handle

15. no handle wrap(I like to feel the wood on the grip when I shoot)

16. B-50

I also prefer my bows in the 50-55lb range at 27" draw.  God bless,
           Matt G.

[crosseye]

this is some great info...not to hijack the thread, but i went out last weekend to cut some osage but was unable to at the moment...too wet and gooey...anyhow, i have lots a good ash wood...how about your best design for an ash bow following the same specs of this thread?  thanks in advance for the info.

stan

[George Tsoukalas]

Oops. That's what I meant, Ferret. jawge

[Linc]

More or less with me each piece of wood determines what it's gonna be.But actually my latest Whatchamacallit is turning out to be a favorite. 56"NTN bend in the handle penobscot pyramid, with a single layer of sinew.Semi static tips.45#@28" that throws an arrow like a 50-55#er.Smooth drawing with minimal hand shock.1 3/8" tapering to 7/16 at the tips.

[Huntrdfk]

This is a timely post for me, as I am getting ready to start my first osage bow in the next week or so. I feel fortunate to be able to have references like this from so many experienced
bowyers.  Thanks to everyone who has answered, and to Mickey for starting this post.

David

[Dano]

Good luck to ya David.    

"Whatchamacallit" is a cool bow, doesn't fit the mold and that's just fine.

[clintopher]

You know, this thread has kicked my mind into scientific overdrive, so here's what I've come up with.

Everybody make a bow to there specs, send it to me, and in 5 years I'll tell you which one was the ultimate bow.  :D  

Clint