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Author Topic: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting  (Read 1239 times)

Offline Mike Orton

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Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« on: December 31, 2007, 10:24:00 PM »
Ever since Dr. Ashby's extensive work on the terminal lethality of the Grizzly Grande broadhead there has been a fair resurgence of interest in this old broadhead design.  Postings on the Leather Wall and Trad Gang are quite common place with plenty of pro and con opinions on the subject. Many folks are passionate, both for and against Dr. Ashby's findings and more importantly his rendering of personal opinion.  I personally am a big fan of his work but I can also respect other opinions (primarily whitetail hunters) who have killed many animals with other broadheads and have not found the need for such extreme performance in a broadhead and arrow combination.  They make a good arguement, Dead is Dead and maybe there is no need to use all of Dr. Ashby's findings.  But I personally wanted to explore the topic a bit more on my own.

Based upon the topics presented in the various threads on the Grizzly Grande one resounding issue that has challenged many bowmen is how to sharpen that danged single bevel broadhead.  Of course this challenge exists on any two blade broadhead that one seeks to sharpen as a single bevel design.  Previously I had developed a fairly good hand/eye toward hand sharpening those Grizzly Grandes with a file and a stone hone.  I had found an articulating hobby vice from Harbor Freight that clamped to my kitchen table to hold the broadhead still while I hacked away at the metal.  Admittedly I thought I'd developed a means of sharpening technique and incorprated a good Tanto point design which split bone great.  But, accomplishing all this by hand was highly time consuming.  I'd sit down at the kitchen table, turn on the TV and make my broadheads sharp until the wee hours of the morning....there would be no hair left on my left forearm from testing the sharpness of my efforts.

I have found a machine which not only makes the sharpening process easier but also results in a far superior sharpness...the hairs on my left forearm just pop off now...The results achieved through this machine are awesome!

The machine I speak of is a Jet Wet Grinder.  This is a slow speed wide grinding wheel that is water quenched to preserve the hardness and temper of the Broadhead metal.  There is also a brand called the Tormek Wet Grinder, however the Tormek is about $100 more expensive.  Web addresses for both machines are as follows:
 http://www.tormek.com/  and  http://www.redmondmachinery.com/browse.cfm/4,159.htm

I can't speak for the Tormek Brand but I'm sure it's a fine machine also.  Santa Claus brought me the Jet unit this year so I'll speak toward that machine.  
 

The edge that the grinder produces is a hollow ground design, which appears to be a little better in the sharpness department than that produced by a flat file.  The unit is entirely water cooled, thus preserving the integrity of the metal material.  The accompanying jig firmly holds the broadhead in a repeatable and consistent manner to acheive a smooth even grind consistent across the entire cutting edge of the Broadhead.  The angle of the grind is entirely adjustable.   The machine runs at a slow speed, (about 150 rpm) so the process is very controlable using the jig handle.

 

After the grinding function is accomplished the machine also has a leather strope mounted to a wheel that turns at a similarly slow speed.  The leather strope removes that burl acquired through the grinding process.  I know there are a lot of guys that like to keep the burr in place to create the serrated cut but I personally like the razor sharp nature of the burr removed.

 

I've sharpened many Grizzly Grande Broadheads by hand using the old file and Medium India stone, followed by a hard Arkansas stone.  I achieved acceptable results in the past, but not even close to the outstanding hollow-ground, consistent and even edge produced by this machine.  For those bowhunters trying to find the secret in learning to sharpen the single bevel Grizzly Grande Broadhead, (or any other broadhead with a Single Bevel design) this machine id definately the hot ticket toward achieving professional results.

I know that the Grizzly company intentionally keeps their Rockwell Hardness scale a little softer than the Grizzly's from years past.  This was done to accomodate bowmen who hand sharpen using a file system.  The hardened broadheads were just too danged hard to comfortably sharpen with traditional hand tools.  This machine certainly would gobble-up the sharpening needs of those older, very hard Grizzly Grandes. I wish I could find some of those old very hard broadheads toady.  The below photo really does not do justice to the fine nature of the grind nor the consistency of the edge.  It's really quite nice.  Keep in mind this broadhead was only the second Broadhead attempt at sharpening the Grizzly on the machine.  For those bowmen who prefer to shoot left wing feathers this machine would easily put a left handed single bevel grind upon the broadhead.

 

I also have experimented some with converting the Grizzly Grande 190 to a four blade bleeder design.  What I've tried to achieve is a bleeder blade extremely thin, that will either break off upon contact with heavy bone or bend around that bone.  What I've come up with is pictured below.

 

The bleeders are surplus from the Old Pearson Switchblade broadheads.  These bleeders are only .012 of an inch thickness, they are slotted and only weigh in at 9 grains each.  I have slotted the Grizzly Grande using Dremel high speed grinder tool equipt with a Carborundum cut-off wheel.  Admittedly the slot or curf is far too wide so anyone with a better idea to create a thinner curf please forward to me.  I use JB Weld epoxy to secure the bleeder in place.  I have developed what appears to me to be the ideal Traditional archery broadhead for hunting North American game animals.  The use of this Jet Wet Grinder machine has solved the challenge of achieving razor sharpness on this very strong and durable head.  When you think about the cost involved, these broadheads are only about $4.00 each. There are not too many broadheads that can compare with the strength of this design.

I'd still like to see the Grizzly Company manufacture the Grizzly Grande Super Max, a broadhead of 3 to 1 ratio design that is 1 3/4 inch wide, (after sharpening).  I've asked Shawn to build that sized broadhead and harden that monster to at least a Rockwell 60 but I'm not holding my breath....
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Offline Hot Hap

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 10:55:00 PM »
Hey I've saw those bleeders before. Looks like they turned out pretty good Mike! Hap

Offline SlowBowinMO

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 11:00:00 PM »
Wow Mike, great stuff!   :thumbsup:
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Offline SteveB

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 11:44:00 PM »
Not to hijack, but could the jig be set to do a hollow grind with a 3 blade - 2 blades at a time?

Steve

Offline Jeff U

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2007, 11:51:00 PM »
What does "hollow ground" mean?

Offline Mike Orton

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 12:12:00 AM »
Steve, perhaps a tapered hollow grind is possible on a 3 blade like a snuffer.  I'll experiment some...


Jeff, the term "Hollow Grind" refers to the undercutting of metal due to the arc caused by a round wheel as it grinds.  A flat stone or a file shaves off metal flat, while a round wheel undercuts the edge being ground.  The smaller diameter the wheel the greater the Hollow Grind would be.

Hap, yes your contribution helped out on the Bleeder selection.  Thank you.  I was able to locate several hundred of the Pearson Switchblade bleeders so I should be set for a while.

I've send Doc Ashby some of these four bladed Grizzlys for him to test on those tiny Buffs they grow over there in OZ.  I'm waiting to see how they perform.

This post was not supposed to be about "look how wonderful' but rather as a means of showing bowmen what I believe to be the best means of sharpening a Single Bevel Grind Broadhead.  Lots of folks seem to be struggling with getting that single bevel shaving sharp.
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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 12:39:00 AM »
Just curious - About how many grains do you loose during this process?
“Elk (add hogs to the list) are not hard to hit....they're just easy to miss"          :)
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Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 12:52:00 AM »
I also believe that the bleeders would change the characteristic 'spin' in soft tissue, which is one of the main ingredients to success with grizzly broadheads in my opinion.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Mike Orton

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 01:05:00 AM »
I bought unground Grizzly Grande's, which weighed in at 212 grains.  After sharpening they weighed 186 grains.

Yes Ray, that too is a concern of mine re: the spin effect.  I may grind off the lower portion of the bleeder to remove some of the mass which provides resistence to the spin process.  It remains a work in progress.  If you'd like to try some out on those Gawgia hogs let me know.
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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 01:35:00 AM »
Interesting, Thanks for the info Mike

Good thread BTW, very informative, and a great way to sharpen a single bevel bh, imo

jake
“Elk (add hogs to the list) are not hard to hit....they're just easy to miss"          :)
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Offline Mr.Chuck

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 02:27:00 AM »
Mike,  good post!  I will look into that unit!

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2008, 08:05:00 AM »
I'd love to try them out. I am a technological/mechanical dufus....doing stuff like this is way beyond my capabilities!

I'll PM you my address.

Thanks for the offer, Mike.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline David Alford

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2008, 04:59:00 AM »
No need for cumbersome machines or the inconsistency of other methods. I'll give my solution, pl. trust that is based on a major effort to annihilate sharpening problems with the Grizzly.

You buy the XBlock and Simmons Wheelie Sharpening devices. That's about $85 as I recall.

You follow the directions of XBLock going from coarse to fine, with this difference. You turn one of the two stones upside down so the smooth surface matches the nonbeveled side of the Grizzly. We want to keep a single bevel.

After the last stone, you do a dozen or so light passes with the Simmons Wheelie sharpening system. This will not create a two bevel bh, it will just perfect the single bevel.

To touch up your blade after time in the field, in and out of the quiver, etc. just do a few LIGHT passes with the Simmons Wheelie Sharpener.

That's it, it works every time with minimal metal removal and it's a  portable system.

Offline Steve P

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2008, 11:37:00 AM »
Mike, hard to tell from the photos, but are the bleeders also a single bevel?


Steve

Offline Jack Skinner

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2008, 01:49:00 PM »
I didnt know that grizzlies could be bought unground. Do you just call and order from the company?

Offline David Alford

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2008, 02:18:00 PM »
I've often said the Grizzly with a bleeder, would be one of the best bhs ever. I disagree with a flimsy bleeder, a medium thickness with a really good bevel would be best (and would still break off hitting solid bone). Ideally the bleeder would be nonvented and low profile.

Offline Sharpster

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2008, 09:43:00 AM »
Mike,
Excellent post. I too have been wondering about the effect hollow grinding single bevel broadheads would have on their MA, rotation, and overall performance.

One of our biggest goals for this year is to develop a quick, economical sharpening system for the Grizzlys and other hard to sharpen broadheads.

The sad part of this is that they are only hard to sharpen the first time. After that they are no harder to sharpen than any other broadhead. It's hard to tell someone that they need to buy a couple hundred $ worth of sharpening equipment to sharpen a $30 pack of broadheads.

I just wrote Dr. Ashby to get his thoughts on hollow grinding single bevels. I also gave him a heads-up on this thread so he may post a reply here directly.

-Ron
“We choose to do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard” — JFK

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Offline Kingstaken

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2008, 01:17:00 PM »
Great post.
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Offline LEOPARD

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 01:28:00 PM »
Great stuff Mike!  ;)
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Offline DesertDude

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Re: Yet another Grizzly Grande Posting
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2008, 04:21:00 PM »
Great job Mike.  We need to get together and shoot some.....Mark
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