How much vertical movement for "jumping the string?"

[Naphtali]

When an elk (or whitetail) detects bow noise [at a shot], from 25 yards, the animal "bunches" then moves or "jumps the string."

I recognize that the amount and speed of movement will differ between the different sized species.

For mature animals, what is the approximate downward vertical movement during "bunching?" About how much time does this take, assuming the bow's noise is 25 yards from the animal?
***
Please ignore methods to quiet the noise. I'm trying to confirm movement from it.

[Charlie Lamb]

Impossible to calculate accurately!  

[twosheds]

If the animal is at all alert, faster than your arrow can get there. When I shot wheels, I had a hog at 15 yds completely duck my arrow and I was shooting 75 lbs at about 278fps. I dont know of any way to estimate this, except aim low.

[sswv]

I saw a TV show one time where a fellow stated a whitetail deer could drop the vertical lenght of it's body (top of back to belly) in 3/10's of a second. Supposedly they had made this assement using video cameras. But' you know TV!!

[vermonster13]

They only need to drop about six inches(whitetails)to make a clean kill into a long tracking job.

[String Cutter]

The Wensel Brothers showed in slow motion on one of their videos, that a deer can drop their entire body width in 1/5 of a second. (I think it was????
Also read (TBM???) that G. Fred Asbell once stood behide a tree down range while a friend shot arrows at a target. As I remember he said there was a lot of differance in observing from down range and he thought ... he himself could jump out of the way of the arrow.
I think the point all of them and myself included is this. Watch their body language and if'n they look tense don't shoot. Better to not take the shot then wound a deer..... Plus to me..if'n you're thinking they're going to jump the string then they probably are and you won't be thinking fully of the shot anyway... which will give you a bad shot anyhow...

[ChuckC]

Watch a hunting video, the kind where they do the slow motion miss shot like Primos does.  Put a straight edge, or arrow shaft along the deers back and watch how far they drop and watch where the arrow went in relation to the straight edge.  They are amazing critters.
ChuckC

[WLThomas IV]

I think they can teletransport...dig under the ground at least. I've shot at one last year and it was gone so fast, I wondered if it was ever really there.

Actually, a lot of the old hunters I've talked to say to shoot for the heart and if they drop, most likely, you'll still get center mass and get lungs. If your aim is good and they don't drop, you get the heart.

[Guru]

Why?  Just wondering....

[Wudstix]

I've had deer "duck" 6-8" and also had one buck do a belly flop and then get up and head the other way.  I don't think there is any formula.  Best bet is to shot at the belly line and let them "duck" into your arrow.

[Bowmania]

It takes them a lot longer to duck, if their walking or running.

Bowmania

[Naphtali]

Thank you all for responding.

Guru:
"Why?" is an excellent question. I have the better part of seven months to discover whether the act of "bunching" can be used for the shot. Most of us invest substantial time and money to quiet our bows that elk or deer will not move out of the way of the arrow -- or worse, move almost out of the way.
***
An analogy of what I have in mind might be found in pheasant shooting. The pheasant flushes. Upon reaching, oh say, 15-20 feet in the air, it appears to stop as it orients itself to fly horizontally. For a few hundredths of a second, the pheasant is essentially motionless.
***
Several months ago I hypothesized that rather than quiet the bow, why not use the noise if the noise could induce the elk or deer to move predictably.

I think we can agree that after opening day of hunting season -- this does not hold true before it, at least in my yard -- elk and deer react to the sound of the bow. If they are not already severely crouched, they bunch to flee unpredictably. The "bunch" part is predictable, not turn and bunch, not jump and bunch. The bunching always precedes fleeing -- unless the animal is in that position or is in the process already.

So, if I can gather information from bowhunters, if I can watch and startle whitetail in my backyard, perhaps I can identify elapsed time that includes recognition/reaction through initial flight.

Then, knowing the flight time of my arrow from release through 25 yards, if the times are congruent, I can use unquieted bow's noise to force the animal into the position I know it will take.

Well, that's what I'll try to do.

[bjk]

I would practice more, and think less.

[yleecoyote23]

Originally posted by bjk:
I would practice more, and think less.

     

WAY too many variables to accurately predict what an animal is going to do at any given time.....

[DarkeGreen]

I'm one of those who thinks only good comes from research. I believe many times the benefit comes from unexpected areas though. I will be surprised if you can predict where you should place an arrow when you scare a deer with a loud noise. I've had deer drop all the way to the ground, I've had them swap ends, or jump up in the air 3 feet. Deers ability to move quickly (how fast they can get out of the way)depends on how smart they are, ability to hear, how many times they've been shot or shot at, and even age. How much muscle or fat they have and conditioning will play also. I'd say 90% of the deer i've shot at did nothing, including deer that stood there and watched me draw the bow.

One might learn ways to advoid the 10% that cause problems by doing this type of research though.

[2fletch]

You can predict to some degree what a whitetail will do, but it's never certain. At one point I had several deer drop, causing the arrow to skim over the back. I decided to try shooting at the bottom hairline also with about the same effect as DTala. It peeled off about 2 inches of skin. I believe I've since gone to aiming at the heart.

I started doing the math for this and it didn't make any sense. For a bow shooting at 180 fps, shooting at a deer at say 12 yards results in the arrow taking only .2 seconds to reach the target.
The speed of sound is around 500 fps (if memory serves me correctly) so it takes .072 seconds for the string noise to reach the deer. That means that the deer now has .128 seconds to react. (If you dropped a hammer, it would only fall 6.29 inches in that time.) The deer has to process this through his brain and then move faster then the speed of gravity to get down.

Conclusion One: Part of his body has to be coming up for the deer to move faster then the speed of gravity.

Conclusion Two: The deer is grabbing something on or in the ground and pulling downward.

Just joking!

[wifishkiller]

DTala you beat me to it.  I’ve also shot deer real relaxed (well as relaxed as a whitetail gets) and had them duck the string with wheels (280 fps) and my sticks.  I’ve also shot deer that saw me or new something was real wrong that never moved an inch till the arrow blew threw.  I also don’t agree with hold at there belly line cause with my longbow I’ve had vary few deer jump the string and you would be miss way more then you would be killing other wise.  I would say stop thinking so much and spend your time watching deer reactions on hunting videos or watch them in the woods.  You'll be way more ahead of the game.   Also this got me thinking (lol that’s never good) I’ve also never had a deer duck the string after I grunted with my mouth to stop them.  I’ve shot prolly 15 to 20 deer like that, anyone else have the same reaction?

[Donnie]

Most of the compound shooters that I know will aim at the lower 1/3 of the body on a whitetail, simply because they expect the deer to drop.  

I watched a video one time in which they had (4) four shot sequences where they were hunting elk and were(supposedly) shooting bows that were around 300 fps. (I would bet the bows were closer to 250 fps.) This video showed bull elk dropping its full body height, and completely ducking the arrow, at 20 yards.  Of course... these bows sounded like .22 going off!  (Late 80's when overdraws were all the rage.)

Now... I'm new to shooting Traditional equipment... but I have taken many deer and elk with my "Other" bows.  And it seems to me that it all boils down to this...
1) You must be proficient with the bow of your choice.
2) The bow needs to be as silent as possible.
And...
3) Shooting at an alert animal severely decreases your chance at success... NO MATTER HOW FAST YOUR BOW IS...

I do believe it is a good practice to shoot at the lower 1/3 of the chest on a Whitetail.  Although... the Mulies, Blacktails, and Roosies that I hunt don't seem to care... as long as they are not alert to my presence!        

Donnie

[Swanny in MD]

I've said this before...sorry to be redundant but it's valid for this thread...from 25' high I once shot a doe (was broadside)  that compressed and leaned into the sound, instead of away from it (lots of noise from a busy highway may have contributed).  Hit her on the opposite side high, exited out bottom of chest cavity and one-lunged her.

fish killer...can't say the same for the stopping with mouth grunt...mixed reaction in my neck of the woods...I don't do it any longer...either wait till the stop or shoot on the walk.

I've got many a reaction to an arrow on video footage I've taken.  Unpredictable events to say the least.

[TexasBubba]

So, let me get this straight.  You blow an air horn, hit your tree stand with a hammer or better yet yell at a relaxed deer, then you shoot an arrow where you think the deer will be after he reacts to the sound or do you shoot the arrow first then make the noise.    

This can not be for reall