HH bug got me ... Part One!

[JohnI]

To each their own I think the carbon is a good idea. I used to have Bill Matlock bows with carbon backs as well as Jack Harrison bows with carbon and both were exceptional performers due to the carbon. I believe Bill used to say you could get at least the performance of a bow 5 pounds heavier than what you were shooting. This may not be a big deal but everything done to these bows since the self bow has been about added performance. I am sure putting fiberglass on the back of a bow was considered radcal at one time. My other Expedition is 6 pounds heavier than my other new one at this point I will just be eyeballing I am not going to fool with the chronograph in the lousy weather. In any event I have several Miller bows any they are all exceptional ì enjoy the all wood ones as well as the backed bows. Variety is the spice of life.

[Knapper]

I talked at great length with Dave at the Kalamazoo show about his bows.  Disregarding any of the arguments about carbon verses glass he is now using carbon out of shear necessity,  as the woven pliable fiber glass that he has used in the past on the back is no longer in production and his supply is depleted, he is now using the flexible woven carbon.  Understand that the backing on the back has to flex over the raised nodes on the back.  The current production glass is not flexible enough and it's strains only run longitudinally so it will separate along those longitudinally strains if bent to the degree when applied over raised nodes, where as the older out of production woven glass is not only flexible it is woven so it would not separate.  Thus the new carbon will add one added improvement and that is longitudinal stability.

If you want to argue about the use of carbon maybe you should talk with Howard about why he started using glass on the backs of his bows in the first place.  If you want a longbow constructed using concave, convex shaped Bamboo laminations you are going to have to settle for either NO glass like Howard's pre-glass bows or Carbon on the back.  

Now having said that I am sure that if you can come up with some of the out of production woven glass Dave would be more that happy to use it.

Please understand there are lots of great bowyers out there making lots of great longbows, but the MAIN REASON that anyone buys a Dave Miller longbow is, that as far as I know, he is the only one constructing the longbows the same way that Howard did.

I do not mean to upset anyone with this post, nor is it aimed at anyone but we can all debate issues or changes in building materials or designs and for sure that is good but to a degree,  please lets not nit pick.  Sometimes it is not more important to post questions, thoughts, facts, and insights rather that opinions.  

One last thought adding carbon it is not exactly like adding TRAINING WHEELS.

[Ralphie]

I agree with John I that carbon is a good idea, simply because it is a design addition/change from a noted bowyer.

My Expedition is a much harder shooting, flatter shooting bow than either the Old Tom or the Sage. Comparing them, is IMHO, foolish. They are too different.

Custom bows today, for the most part, are considered different or better, based on the wood combinations used. Value is often more on beauty, than performance.

[mikebiz]

Thanks Knapper.  That explains a lot.  Guess it'll be carbon or nothing on the convex/concave models.

I too am curious to see how the carbon works out.  I'm glad to hear that it is being used as a necessary alternative to fiberglass, not as a marketing or performance gimmick, or something like that.  Not that I think David would use a material in that manner.  As for glass I'm all for it.  Like I said it's on all of my bows to date.  And I know I stated here way back in the thread that once Howard discovered fiberglass he used it all the time and it's now part of Hill-style development and history.  

I agree with Ralph that the Expedition is one hard hitting, flat shooter.  When I was able to draw bows of comparable weight to my old Expedition it out performed them for sure.  I gotta get another one, just lighter in weight with CARBON.  

And for what it's worth none of my questions, thoughts, facts, insights or opinions are intended to nit pick or aggravate anyone.  I like hanging out around here, but this site only survives because we're allowed to do any and all of the above.  Minus the aggravating of course      

[Ralphie]

Reading Knappers post I realize that carbon is a necessity. I remember David had some issues with the woven fiberglass.
If it's not available, than something has to fill it's place.
Glad for Knapper's info

and to edit in a melancholy thought;
broadcasting how great a bowyer is will, for sure, get him more business, but it will also almost always insure it will be a lot more difficult to get in the door after that.

Great bowyers are like great auto mechanics. Sometimes there are advantages to keeping them a well kept secret ....  ?
ha!

[Rossco7002]

When John emailed me pics of his Expedition I was very impressed, its a great looking and unique bow. I emailed Dave and he said my Expedition could be either carbon or glass - I said build whatever makes the nicest, longest lasting bow. Can't wait to see what arrives!

@ Ralphie - I'm pretty pleased with my harem, I've been lucky enough to get my hands on some great examples of the longbow. Once the the Expedition arrives I'll be content.... Aside from the need for a Sunset Hill, a Sage, a Hawk..... Lol

@Darren - you're right brother, the bug really took hold in me. Once I got my first Hill everything just 'clicked'. They're the perfect bow for my imperfect shooting!

[mikebiz]

Ralphie, have you heard of David Miller?  I haven't.  Anyone else heard of him?  

This is my futile attempt to jump start the forgetting process so his order line doesn't continue to grow    :D    :p

[Overspined]

Thanks for clearing that up, knapper, I was told the same thing about the Millers and carbon vs woven glass.

Maybe he uses different finishes, but on my split bamboo HE TOLD ME he uses car clear coat bumper paint.

I realize things can change, but I'm trying to understand why everyone questions everything when facts are stated as being right from the source...it's frustrating feeling like everything posted is questioned without first checking.

[Ralphie]

Originally posted by Overspined:
Thanks for clearing that up, knapper, I was told the same thing about the Millers and carbon vs woven glass.

Maybe he uses different finishes, but on my split bamboo HE TOLD ME he uses car clear coat bumper paint.

I realize things can change, but I'm trying to understand why everyone questions everything when facts are stated as being right from the source...it's frustrating feeling like everything posted is questioned without first checking.

I think it's all about information gathering.
 With the internet, it's so fast, people tend to overlap one another.  People quote their source, as you did, ("HE TOLD ME he uses car clear coat bumper paint. "), to avoid the "where did you hear that?" ........

Everyone wants to know as much as they can, as fast as they can. All in all, I think that is a good thing.

Everything has negative aspects

[MT Longbow]

Thank you guys for the Pics, I hope David uses the Curly Myrtle for my riser!

Cany wait till it gets here.

Ralphie, good to see the stable is all out of R&D bows!...I still have that Whip you sold me....Might sell it for a light weight Hill bow for my daughter!

Patrick

[Ralphie]

@ Patrick
It would probably be good to call him and make sure he uses the myrtle.

           Calling my harem a stable !

Actually, I picked up two Fred Anderson Rover bows. shhhhhhhhh

A light Hill bow is hard to find. But a great idea for your daughter.

[canopyboy]

You guys have me all pumped up talking about Dave.

So, if you don't want to wait for a Miller, you can go take the class with him!  You walk away with a bow that he helped you build to his standards.  No waiting involved!

A little bummed about the carbon thing though.  I don't think they make it in clear....  Guess the bow I leave with will have a black back.

Shot the tembo for awhile today.  Muscles felt fatigued after only about 50 arrows.  Wonder if it's the cold, or I just haven't been out there enough in the last couple of months?

[Pete Patterson]

Talked to David a week ago and my Old Tom should be in my hands this month (February).  I say this because he told my that the wait time is no longer the eight months that I got but now it's 14 months......I got lucky and ordered last July.

[Ron Roehrick]

David Millers bows are outstanding in every way, I now own  four with a fifth coming in awhile. I have a , a cc/cv bamboo Hawk,an made with bamboo and yew and just recently picked up an and all are beautiful working pieces of Art. We are lucky to have more class bowyers now than any time in history and they have better material than ever to work with. David Miller is a Master at his craft. So many bows so little time. Long live the longbow. Ron.

[Knapper]

I have been bitten by the Howard Hill bug also as far as the bows go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just do not know about the back quiver as of yet.  It has some major adavantages but it also has a couple of draw backs.

[David Yukon]

I think I have the bug to.... I have a Northern Mist Classic that so far I love. I would love to get a SunsetHill... And a Miller Expedition would be great, but the wait and the price are a limiting factor for sure!! We'll see, maybe Nate will restart building bows, and maybe I'll have enough money for a Miller as well on day.
Cheers

[Overspined]

Agreed Knapper, I use a Hill back quiver for small game, but generally not often for big game anymore unless I'm stalking or sitting on the ground. 1/2 the time I have a treestand on my back and don't want to sling a quiver on top. I can carry a GFA in the same hand as my bow so I do that a lot. I am making my own hip quiver to hold more arrows.  The hood quivers also would seem to keep the heads from dulling as easily. I realize arrows don't rattle much in a good back quiver, but they do make noise that I don't like for deer, the feathers even Krinkle a bit when you move.  I would use one for elk, they aren't as keyed in to every sound.

[Knapper]

Agreed Overspined, but I may pick one up to have and look at.  Just what I need something that costs me money so I can look at it.

[Knapper]

Darren is that wood as red as it looks in the photo that you posted.  If it is what kind is it.  If it is that red it is more stunning than a 20 year old!

[Rossco7002]

That bow of Darren's is real eye candy!

Pete - I put my Expedition order in last July as well, hopefully it's not too far behind your Old Tom on Dave's list!