HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Rob DiStefano]

there is no question that one needs to have an "open mind" with regards to form and all other aspects of trad archery.  try anything and everything and *your* "right thing" will become ever more evident to *you*.  

just don't adopt form and/or tackle solely for hero emulation, or because some "archery guru" sez his/her way is the "right way" - that's totally counter-productive and wrong ... naw, it's not at all wrong, it's plain *stupid*.   :D

[droz il]

Thanks for the videos Spanky.

[stik&string]

Spanky, Thank you for the videos  

[Mudd]

Even with in the ranks of those who aspire to emulate Hill are going to have their own individual variances, but the basics of the philosophy are evident.  It is proper to study what someone has done that is as spectacular as Hills feats and to see if it could improve ones own shooting.  As a classical musician I study all of the greats that I can that came before me. They all share things in common, it is how the art form thrives and grows.  the art of making bows and shooting them is not that much different.   In music the ones that ignore their predecessors  work for years to gain very little and it is up to their PR people to make fans think they are end all next great thing.  Certainly  anyone that studies archery can acknowledge those that have  preceded them.  What archers do when they go to shooting clinics is hope to adapt and gain in abilities from the knowledge of those that are transferring their knowledge in hopes of getting paid and that the customer will get their moneys worth from the shooting lessons.  And Rob I am a very intelligent and objective person; I do not worship anyone because of their status, but I readily acknowledge what they can do.
 I have seen folks struggle with longbows, even when they could handle recurves very well.  Considering how many guys are spending their hard earned money on Hill bows, it would be good if Ken's videos give help to those that may have struggles with them.  I am looking forward to more video clips Ken.

Mudd,
You dawg!!

Now everyone will see my new bow design...uniquely Chinese...LOL    

***************

Paven, X2

[tradlongbow]

Hey Mudd

If you are going to immolate Hill in that picture, you going to have to take your shirt off,      

Great form and stance.

Darren

[stik&string]

I was up doing some late night studying and spanky's vids and mudd's pics made me break out the robin hood. I got the locater grip on this one and although it is comfortable, I find that my heel tends to want to come away from the grip. Now that I am aware of this I can correct it. Thanks guys.

[bicster]

Excellent videos Spanky! I wish I saw them a couple years ago when I bought my first HH. It took me a while and some trial and error to wind up with the same results. Your videos would have shortened up the learning curve.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by pavan:
Even with in the ranks of those who aspire to emulate Hill are going to have their own individual variances, but the basics of the philosophy are evident.  It is proper to study what someone has done that is as spectacular as Hills feats and to see if it could improve ones own shooting.  As a classical musician I study all of the greats that I can that came before me. They all share things in common, it is how the art form thrives and grows.  the art of making bows and shooting them is not that much different.   In music the ones that ignore their predecessors  work for years to gain very little and it is up to their PR people to make fans think they are end all next great thing.  Certainly  anyone that studies archery can acknowledge those that have  preceded them.  What archers do when they go to shooting clinics is hope to adapt and gain in abilities from the knowledge of those that are transferring their knowledge in hopes of getting paid and that the customer will get their moneys worth from the shooting lessons.  And Rob I am a very intelligent and objective person; I do not worship anyone because of their status, but I readily acknowledge what they can do.
 I have seen folks struggle with longbows, even when they could handle recurves very well.  Considering how many guys are spending their hard earned money on Hill bows, it would be good if Ken's videos give help to those that may have struggles with them.  I am looking forward to more video clips Ken.

i hear ya larry, i'm not pointing fingers or saying anything negative about anyone or any thing.  

each of us needs to allow ourselves to find what works specifically for us individually because we are all unique individuals.  emulation may be a form of flattery but it may also - and usually does - stifle both function and creativity.

in the case of howard hill, who was left eye dominant and intentionally shortened his draw length to accommodate his need for ever stiffer wood arrows, he surely listened to the beat of his own drum in the final analysis.  

we each owe it to ourselves to try out everything or as much as we can with regards to both form and tackle, then  allow and adopt the things that make each of us most consistent, and make that our very own.

in essence, the only disservice is to purport that one must have a certain form to shoot certain tackle.  that kind of dictum would be a mistake and i'm glad no one is saying that.

having been intimately involved with most all forms of music for the last 56 years, the analogy to archery is one and the same.  for sure and most definitely.    :cool:

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:

each of us needs to allow ourselves to find what works specifically for us individually because we are all unique individuals.  emulation may be a form of flattery but it may also - and usually does - stifle both function and creativity.

we each owe it to ourselves to try out everything or as much as we can with regards to both form and tackle, then  allow and adopt the things that make each of us most consistent, and make that our very own.

in essence, the only disservice is to purport that one must have a certain form to shoot certain tackle.  that kind of dictum would be a mistake and i'm glad no one is saying that.

   :cool:  

Rob, I am also glad that no one is saying that.  I don't disagree with a thing here.  The info you gave me a couple months ago was very helpful as is the input/coaching of Spanky and others.  

I adapted a basic HH "form" many years ago....just because.  That in itself means nothing but I believe it stuck with me for so many years is that it is indeed natural (for me) and works well (for me)..so if it ain't broke I ain't gonna fix it.  But,as is my nature, I will tweak it until the day I die.  That is the reason I studied the stuff you gave me...good!  It is all good..and great fun...and amazing brotherhood.
       

[xbmedic]

Thanks for the helpful videos, Spanky.

[Nate Steen .]

Pavan,

I concur with your assessment.  I'm also a classical musician as a hobbyist...I love my viola.  The analogies are similar.  It amuses me when I think that I can grip a viola neck and handle the bow any way I want, and it will play music...and that's ok because it's me, it's my style...  However, if I want to play it well,  it behooves me to pay attention to how it should be handled as taught by the masters.  I believe it is the same with the Hill style longbow.  As in other types of bows,  look to the masters of the weapon to learn how to shoot them the best, to get the best out of that instrument.  If I was shooting a Yumi style Japanese bow,  I'd look for instruction from someone well versed in that bow.  The same reasoning should apply to the Hill style longbow... even though it can be shot any old way, according to the shooters personal style.  Do you want to get the best out of the bow?...shoot it with the best method devised for it....

  I've noticed that the majority of people who say to me in print or on the phone that they can shoot the Hill style bow however they want, and they don't believe it matters or they don't want to change their form to fit the Hill-style bow...these people don't shoot this style bow well, they go through Hill style bows like water, and always go back to their other bows whatever style of bow that may be.  And that is ok with me.  Shoot whatever bow is the most comfortable to you, whatever style of bow fits your physique, personal makeup, likes, whatever...be it a Yumi bow, Korean C bow, english longbow, selfbow, ILF recurve, R/D bows, or Hill style longbow....it's all good, but in their own unique way each shoots better if you shoot them with their nuances in mind....  

[Rob DiStefano]

i strongly disagree, nate.  

there are a myriad of valid approaches to stringed machines that work exceedingly well, and the only correct one is the one that works best for the operator.  

i.e., to say that the only way to approach classical guitar is via segovia's teachings is absurd.  it's the same for the american flat longbow and howard hill.

i will say to all - be observant of all shooting forms, try as many as you can, use whatever works best for you.  if possible, seeking out a valid, certified coach to make sure your form foundation is on the right track is always a good thing.  above all, don't allow anyone to tell you how you should shoot a bow, but do listen to those who suggest methods and procedures for you to trial.

[Mudd]

My experience is very limited but I will say "for me" changing my grip on my Hill style bows has made a big difference in my shooting for the better.

When I 1st became serious about archery like a lot of others I started with the wheeled type bows.

Shooting that style of bow, the best way was to not exactly hold the bow but allow it to rest in my bow hand with a "very" relaxed hold so as not to torque the bow in any way.

Fast forward to my traditional history.

I started with self bows, progressed to modern recurves then r/d bows and now finally Hill/Hill style bows.

My grip was still a modified wheel bow style grip and it worked for me. It was just not as consistent as I wanted it to be.

I was using what I knew.. but I decided to be open to trying it differently.

Did it feel natural the 1st day?

Nope!

But by day two it was coming around and now I don't even have to think about it and my accuracy is coming back and even better it is becoming more consistent each and every day.

I will continue to  make any change(s) that are necessary to constantly improve my shooting and my enjoyment of shooting.

It's all good... take what works for you... leave the rest but you'll be doing yourself a "Good" if you are willing to try anything that's make you better.

The better I am, the more I enjoy it... I have a hard time believing that one myself...lol but only because I was already "ate-up" with it!...lol

God bless,Mudd

PS: I want to thank each and every one of you that has taken your time to share with us on this thread in particular.  It's been a real learning experience for me... some of what I learned is more important than how I shoot a bow.. what I learned about was/is you!!

[Owlmagnet]

Whooo Hoooo!!!  I have read every post in this thread and I am delighted that it is beginning to evolve into a serious discussion of the application of the Hill-style form to the Hill-style bow.  Thank you all, gentlemen.  I am one of those pathetic unfortunates who is quite competent with a recurve but has really struggled with the unique challenges of the heel-down, straight grip, bent elbow, swing draw elements of the Hill-style methodology.  The films, photo's, and discussions are invaluable.  Agree or disagree with one another as you will--this discussion is helping a LOT of people!  Again, my thanks.

[bayoulongbowman]

All this talk has me Jones-in for HH yew ...    

[Steve Clandinin]

Rob,Mudd and Owl,No truer words have been said than the last three posts.Mudd your experiences with the HH are exactly what I went through.
Trials,Tribulations and like Robb said an open mind helped me come a long way on my shooting longbows.This post has been a complete boom for anyone interested in the longbow .Kudus to you all for helping so many.

[Rik]

The one thing I HAVE TO DO when I shoot a Hill bow to be accurate is to squeeze the handle with my bottom two fingers (my pinkie and the one above it).

If I do that, it forces me to have perfect contact/pressure with the heel of my hand and puts my wrist in the perfect position.

It's simple as could be, but it works extremely well.

Anyone else use this same technique to get the heel pressure right?

[Mudd]

ooopppssss!!  

I messed up on this one... read my next post.

I am sorry! Please excuse me!

Thank you!

God bless, Mudd