HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Mudd]

Originally posted by Rik:
The one thing I HAVE TO DO when I shoot a Hill bow to be accurate is to squeeze the handle with my bottom two fingers (my pinkie and the one above it).

If I do that, it forces me to have perfect contact/pressure with the heel of my hand and puts my wrist in the perfect position.

It's simple as could be, but it works extremely well.
Anyone else use this same technique to get the heel pressure right?

This and the position of my thumb knuckle are the two things I adjusted to improve my shooting... It works... for me!

God bless,Mudd

[Owlmagnet]

I do, Rik--and if you've ever mentioned it before in a post on any number of forums, I probably learned it from you.  Thanks.  It works.  This is what I'm talking about.  We all have these bows.  We all love these bows.  I hope we can help one another get increasingly deadly with them.  Hill-style mentors are pretty scarce in my neighborhood.  Sure, I've read the books and I'm doing my best to wear out the Shultz CD, but John says "you have to grab a'hold of it" because Howard told him "you have to grab a'hold of it".  Which is true, I guess, but your insight made THAT insight a lot more useful to me.  That's why threads like this are very important.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Owlmagnet:
... Sure, I've read the books and I'm doing my best to wear out the Shultz CD, but John says "you have to grab a'hold of it" because Howard told him "you have to grab a'hold of it".  Which is true, I guess, but your insight made THAT insight a lot more useful to me.  That's why threads like this are very important.

i think it's good that some folks can "hand shake" a straight grip and use that with consistent accuracy.

[SpankyNeal]

I do as well Rik. If you want to see how grip pressure affects the bow, try applying pressure with different combinations of fingers, i.e. the first two, middle two, and then the last two. This little drill will convince you that where you apply pressure to a Hill grip is very important in how the bow feels at the shot!

I'm very glad that you all are getting something from the clips I made. I'll post some links to the new ones once they're done.

[Nate Steen .]

Rik,  that is one of the foundational parts of great Hill bow shooting....goood stuff

Rob,  the Hill style principles are attributed mostly to Hill,  but they are the things that most of the top shooters of the day also did,  Hill just incorporated them into his style.  Pope, Young, Compton, and others also used a form very similar.  Just as in using a viola and holding the viola bow,  there is a certain way to do it, no matter who the master musician is they all use the same principles, it's not just willy nilly.  That's my point,  Hill was a master of his style of shooting, which also happens to work well with his style of bow...it just makes sense to learn his technique and adapt it to personal physique and preferences....

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Rik,  that is one of the foundational parts of great Hill bow shooting....goood stuff

Rob,  the Hill style principles are attributed mostly to Hill,  but they are the things that most of the top shooters of the day also did,  Hill just incorporated them into his style.  Pope, Young, Compton, and others also used a form very similar.  Just as in using a viola and holding the viola bow,  there is a certain way to do it, no matter who the master musician is they all use the same principles, it's not just willy nilly.  That's my point,  Hill was a master of his style of shooting, which also happens to work well with his style of bow...it just makes sense to learn his technique and adapt it to personal physique and preferences....

good stuff to know, understand and try - but usage is always arbitrary and absolutely not mandatory.  we're all experiments of one.

[Stone Knife]

If you watch some of Hills early stuff the bow slips down through his hand after the shot. I have tried a lot of different methods to shoot my Hill, I find I shoot it best when i just shoot and don't think about what I'm doing  

[Nate Steen .]

I'm not mandating any system as "the system" that has to be used for success....there are shooters who can shoot very well with multiple styles of bows...but they are in the minority.

my intention in my statements is to help or direct guys who want to shoot these Hill style bows better to a system that is conducive to accurate, comfortable, Hill bow shooting....

as I've said many times before, to each their own....

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
... as I've said many times before, to each their own....

that is all that matters and the only correct approach to much of life.  

[Mudd]

Wahoo!

Now we are all on the same page again!!

Again I can not thank all of you who have posted here enough.

There's more good information and advice given in these "few" pages than I've found in a whole slew of books.

I am so very appreciative of each one of your contributions.

It sure didn't hurt my eyes with all of the beautiful pictures either.

I have one of the plainer but sweeter shooting "Hill" style bows that I could ask for in my Osage Royale 66" 52@28

 
 
 
 

 

God bless,Mudd

[Nate Steen .]

Mudd,

your form is lookin' fine....real fine      now you are controlling the bow, it's not controlling you...

I thank Spanky for the time and effort in putting the Hill form basics out there in a modern medium, in laymen's terms, in a further explanation of instruction that has lain dormant for too long....

Schulz, Wesley, and Miller through video and classes have taught many, many people but Spanky's little clips have the chance to reach many more....and he's not to proud to hold some of that info back for himself....  

[xbmedic]

Originally posted by Owlmagnet:
I have read every post in this thread and I am delighted that it is beginning to evolve into a serious discussion of the application of the Hill-style form to the Hill-style bow.  Thank you all, gentlemen.  

+1 here! A big mahalo from Hawaii!

There are some that say that at no time in his life was Segovia ever the best guitarist in the world.  he did not reinvent how to play the classical guitar there were others that used the nails for sound before him.  What he did have is a passion to play to the world and many have come to the forefront because of his skill and art including my friend Julian Bream, who uses much of the same basics as Segovia but is quite different in his philosophy and his interpretations.  
   Hill said that Swineheart was a better size for shooting a longbow than he was.  Much of the form was the same, he was a bit straighter up and perhaps had a slightly straighter bow arm, but the philosophy of how to use a longbow was similar. There are aspects of Hill's form that are worth considering for most shooters.  The spread draw allows the bow to come into action with more versatility.  The bent bow arm helps keep the shoulders in line while aiding in aiming flexibility and timing.  With my longbows that have more of a fifties Bear style grip my arm is a bit straighter and my my grip is of course adjusted to match that particular bow.  A flexible shot is still possible with the different grip but it is a little different.  the best I ever did on quarters tossed across my four foot target was 5 out of 6 at 10 or 12 yards, a freak day of being in the zone, that was done with a Bear Super K.  I can not begin to shoot a longbow with the same bow arm or grip as I do with the Super K.  The bows that have the fifties styled Bear Kodiak grip are about halfway between the Super K and the straight Hill grips for application.  More than just how we each get a bow to be our friend, the use of a bow takes on a different character when a fast and flexible form is adapted.  shots that were not even considered before all of a sudden become a serious attempt, especially when rabbit hunting.  
  All that I still say that if one wants to try to figure why Hill was as good as he was, it is worth studying exactly what he did when he shot.  He may have bent his arm to help out with his arrow spines, but it is possible that the change helped him do other things as well.  It is also possible that for many bending the bow arm that far will not work, because they do not have the strength to do that.
  WOW WAY TO MUCH TYPING FOR ME, I need to take a time out now.

[Rob DiStefano]

well i guess i was wrong.  it does appear as if some of you feel there is only one best/true/whatever way to address american flat longbow shooting form and nothing else could/should work as well.  if so, and i hope i'm wrong, that's utter nonsense.    

from what i've seen of howard's shooting films, he sure had his own style and he was really good a what he did.  i think too many folks idolized him to the point of revering most everything he did, including how he shot a longbow.  well, none of us are howard hill in both physique and pure genes talent. i've seen guys "shooting like howard" that should stop that immediately and rethink their form, 'cause they're just not consistently accurate.  and for sure there are folks "hitting 'em hard like howard" that do very well.  just don't imply that there is only one consistently accurate way to use a flat longbow, 'cause that's way wrong.

i think of archery thisaway - it's a unique and subjective freeform aiming sport that depends, for reasons of consistent accuracy success, mostly on individual human attributes of both physique, vision and 'tween-the-ears gray matter.  find out what works best for you and then don't look back.

[Nate Steen .]

Pavan,

good points.  In the music analogy,  I was stating that comparing the techniques of recurves or r/d bows to Hill style bows is like guitars to violas...  You hold a guitar differently than a viola, yet both have strings, necks, similar curves, tuning pegs, etc.  However, if you want to play a viola well, you absolutely will not hold it the same and play it the same as a guitar and vice versa.....

that's my whole point, which has been missed....learn to shoot/play your instrument based on knowledge and teaching techniques of those who have mastered that instrument.  That is basic common sense....

  Of course you will adjust those techniques to fit your personality, physique, or whatever.  That's part of our individuality,  and also what helps humanity improve on past performances

[sou-pawbowhunter]

 I'm with Mudd, I'd like to thank all who have contributed to this thread.  There has been a ton of great information shared here, and even though it is a passion for all of us, I have been impressed with the civility shown in expressing our varied opinions as regards the best way to tame this beast.

Admittedly there are a variety of ways to use a longbow, but if one has no prior knowledge of longbows, where does one start learning.  To me it is obvious, start with the man that perfected the use of the design and designed the bow around himself and how he was going to use it.  Talk about being civil, no one has yet said the only way to sharpen a Hill broadhead.  My own Hill broadheads are radically different than regular Hills, I wish they were available to everyone with the single bevel.  They really do work well for us, no matter which technique  we use to sharpen them.  I cannot get a regular Hill broadhead shaving sharp, but I can get singles easily shaving sharp. A partial serration can be added to that shaving edge as well.  Off topic I know, but my point being that even if we aspire to Hill the results will come out different from individual to individual, with certain similarities.  It is common to see that when someone thinks they are doing it like Hill in reality they may find that they are not and have basic flaws in their attempt that short circuits their successes.  I know, I was one of them.  the invention of the video camera caused a real shock for how I shot.  What something feels like to how something really is can be quite different, it was for me.

[Rob DiStefano]

we're back on the same page, pavan - way cool.  

[Benny Nganabbarru]

The reason I like the Masters DVDs are that they make it quite clear that many are the paths to shooting happiness.

Mudd, perhaps someday I shall commission a bow from Craig named "Cheeky Bloody Crocodile" or something. My collection lacks an osage bow.

[sou-pawbowhunter]

Can you believe this is closing in on 3000 posts?