HH bug got me ... Part One!

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,

I don't own a chrono,  never saw the need.  However, many customers of mine have stated over the years that they are really surprised how fast my bows are, from 45 - 80 pounds.  They are ordering bows that are comparable with the weights they were currently shooting and are comparing arrow speeds with bows that are reflexed or straight.  Most customers are shooting arrows at least as stiff or in many, many cases they are shooting arrows stiffer than they are used to in their other 'hill style' bows.  I think that if the bow is tillered and timed properly, it will shoot well regardless of the weight.

To clarify my previous statement (not to put anyone down, especially other bowyers of whom I send many customers)  I believe that Hill's bowmaking principles have been lost on many people.  Hill also was constantly tinkering with his bows to make them better while still keeping their original form and function.  A good string follow bow shouldn't follow the lead of a backset bow...they are different bows and should have different design attributes, while still conforming to Hill's original principles. This means that a good string follow bow can shoot very comparable with a straight or slightly backset bow for speed, but be much better in terms of shootability. These are my thoughts on the subject based on years of research and bowmaking and aren't in any way meant to demean anyone's bows or bowmaking abilities.  I for one am over the top excited to see such an interest in Straight End longbows, and the renaissance of their popularity.  I have limited bowmaking time available and therefore send many potential customers to Miller, Ekin, and Turay who in the past few years have enjoyed the resurgence in string follow design, carmelized bamboo, and visible-fadeout risers.

i hear ya, thanx.

now to my question previously posed .. lemme cut to the chase, is it worth getting a string follow longbow of 45#, or will that light holding weight proportionally be that noticeable less efficient than the same bow at 60#?

[SpankyNeal]

I think we were posting at the same time Rob LOL!

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by SpankyNeal:
The reason I said that is because alot of guys like the bow longer than Hills formula and that's a mistake with string follow bows! I do have a 47@27 Sunset Hill as well and it seems just as fast at the same gpp as the heavier one. I don't use a chrono but I can pick either one up and hit spot on with it at range with no adjustments so they must be real close!

what is howard hill's bow length formula?  i read him saying the arrow length (draw length, i'll assume) corresponds to the bow length.  the formula being a 6' longbow for a 28" arrow, and each 1/2" more or less in arrow length is multiplied x 2 and added or subtracted from that 72" bow.  does that pan out with a modern wood/glass hill, sunset, miller, schulz, etc?

[Sixby]

Excuse the ignorance here but its how we learn. What is a visible =fadeout riser? you can see the fadeout in any riser if you look close enough. Its a term I am un-familar with  Thanks and God bless you, Steve

[SpankyNeal]

Take the last digit of your draw length and add it to 60"...if 30" draw or over add to 70". So a 29" draw would be a 69" bow.

[SpankyNeal]

A visible fadeout riser is where the riser is not covered by the belly lams but is exposed under the clear glass if that makes sense. You can see it on the Robin Hood bow pics and on my light Sunset Hill pics.

[Nate Steen .]

Rob,

because of the different shooting characteristics of the different Hill style bowmakers' longbows, you would have to compare bows within the bowmaker's offerings.  In my bows, if you shoot a 480 gr arrow out of a 48# bow, you will get similar arrow speed and feel as a 600 gr arrow out of a 60#r.  Obviously, you will get better penetration with the heavier arrow.  Craig Ambros aka Fishone just got a 47#r from me, maybe his imput can help.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by SpankyNeal:
Take the last digit of your draw length and add it to 60"...if 30" draw or over add to 70". So a 29" draw would be a 69" bow.

where did that formula originate?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,

because of the different shooting characteristics of the different Hill style bowmakers' longbows, you would have to compare bows within the bowmaker's offerings.  In my bows, if you shoot a 480 gr arrow out of a 48# bow, you will get similar arrow speed and feel as a 600 gr arrow out of a 60#r.  Obviously, you will get better penetration with the heavier arrow.  Craig Ambros aka Fishone just got a 47#r from me, maybe his imput can help.

now that's what i needed to hear.  thanx.

[Nate Steen .]

Spanky and Rob...

subtract one digit from the bow length in comparison to the draw length...ie.  28" draw..67" bow    27"draw = 66" bow.  However, as my customers know, there are many other factors included in determining bowlength...hand size among them....

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Rob,

because of the different shooting characteristics of the different Hill style bowmakers' longbows, you would have to compare bows within the bowmaker's offerings.  In my bows, if you shoot a 480 gr arrow out of a 48# bow, you will get similar arrow speed and feel as a 600 gr arrow out of a 60#r.  Obviously, you will get better penetration with the heavier arrow.  Craig Ambros aka Fishone just got a 47#r from me, maybe his imput can help.

69" sunset hill for a 29" draw length?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by sunset hill:
Spanky and Rob...

subtract one digit from the bow length in comparison to the draw length...ie.  28" draw..67" bow    27"draw = 66" bow.  However, as my customers know, there are many other factors included in determining bowlength...hand size among them....

oh.  so for a 29" draw it's a 68" longbow?

[SpankyNeal]

Nate is that for string follow only? I have heard the other formula for a long time from many Hill sources.

[Nate Steen .]

Rob,  one of the many confusions concerning Hill's preferences for bowlength is centered on his size comparisons.  He had very large hands, which contorts dimensions in photos and personal accounts, which is one factor in bowsizing.  Hill also determined his drawlength differently than what we do today.  His bow was customized to him, for what worked for him.  If we take the dimensions of bows he preferred and re-size them to fit an average size man, a comparable bow will be much different.  However, the "standard 68"r" has been a standard for so many years that guys don't even know where it came from let alone if that size is correct for them...

[David Mitchell]

Sixby, here is a picture of one of Nate's bows with the visible fade out....
 

[SpankyNeal]

Looks like David's got something on his mind....another bow perhaps? Hummmmh!  

[Nate Steen .]

Spanky,

the formula did change somewhat over the years due to the advances in bow construction...also Schulz refined that formula in the late 80's with his string follow bows...

Rob,  one of the most critical, if not the most, elements of a proper Hill style bow is limb tiller/bend at full draw.  Compare Hill's limb bend on his personal laminated bows with Schulz's personal bows and they are identical.  This was very important to Schulz in bowmaking.  I try for this same bend in my bows and Schulz has confirmed this to me.  You are an interesting case....you very well might need a shorter bow than you have always thought in order to get that proper limb bend.  But, as I've said, there are many factors in deciding how to build the bow to fit you...not just bowlength, not just grip profile, etc.

[Wannabe1]

I've been reading along and find this to be most educating. Thank you guys for sharing this info.  

[Nate Steen .]

David,  since I built that bow many years ago, I've developed the technique to have a radius ended fadout under a flat lam of glass.  In my mind it is much better looking.

[Nate Steen .]

All this talking....you guys are keeping me out of the bowshop!  lol.lol.